Post-AI team selection.

[Scrumhead]

I think lots of us should admit we were completely wrong about shields also. Way too quick too dismiss the guy. Wilson though is so useful he can play 6/8 and in a crisis 7.

Why? You may be convinced but I'm not. I have seen no evidence that places him ahead of Robshaw, Wilson, Willis, Lawes or Itoje in the blindside pecking order. I'd still have him behind Armand and Rhodes too. He might eventually fulfil a role in Jones's estimation but I still cannot see anything to suggest that all the fuss about poaching him from NZ was justified.

He’s improved from poor to average. If he keeps improving he’s Robshaw with a lineout game. I don’t think he’ll ever be anything other than a good, honest test player. Nothing wrong with that but, given Wilson’s series and Robshaw’s caps and experience, I don’t see him ahead of them for the World Cup, at present.

Based upon what I’ve seen from Shields in SR, I said that he’s capable of better than he’s shown so far, but there’s no hiding that his performances to date have been no better than OK.

He was terrible against SA and OK against NZ and Australia. He’s still got a lot to prove IMO.

If/when Billy is available, I’d far sooner have Wilson at 6. If Billy’s not available, but Robshaw is, I’d sooner have Robshaw at 6 and leave Wilson at 8

[Mikey Brown]

Also on the Watson talk from earlier, I don’t feel like we’ve actually seen a lot of him at 15 for England but I’ve clearly wiped the Ireland game from memory. He’s at least deserving of a similar run there if he can get fit, also his defensive positioning on the wing is atrocious, while I remember finding him surprisingly natural in that role at 15, but he needs minutes there.

[Raggs]

Yeah, he seemed to look a lot more involved against Aus. But he’s been given several free caps in order to get to that point. Wilson has to bust his guts every single week for Newcastle, put in a great performance for England and then still wait another year to get a proper shot, and not even get it in his best position.

This is the stuff that irks people. Clifford, Simmonds, Mercer etc. get a game or two and are out the door the second they don’t have a great game.

Shields may well grow into it and become a very good player. It would be nice if he had to earn it the same way everyone else does though.

?

Shields has had 4 caps, Simmonds 7. Simmonds (for me) hasn't impressed any more than Shields in any game, and is injured. Clifford also has 7 caps, and equally has never particularly impressed for me, combined with the fact that he's a huge sicknote. Mercer is still only 21, and only anywhere near due to injury. I suspect he'll be in the mix soon enough, but do you really think he's in a position to seriously challenge for a place if all are fit?

Go on a rant, but you're a long way off at the moment. Shields had 2 reasonable (at worst) games in South Africa, one out of position and still did well. He had a bit of a bad showing in the first AI, but he's barely played any rugby for months, and even you are willing to admit that he looked alright.

Maybe Wilson has been hard done by, but did anyone really expect him to step up so well?

[Mellsblue]

Yeah, he seemed to look a lot more involved against Aus. But he’s been given several free caps in order to get to that point. Wilson has to bust his guts every single week for Newcastle, put in a great performance for England and then still wait another year to get a proper shot, and not even get it in his best position.

This is the stuff that irks people. Clifford, Simmonds, Mercer etc. get a game or two and are out the door the second they don’t have a great game.

Shields may well grow into it and become a very good player. It would be nice if he had to earn it the same way everyone else does though.

?

Shields has had 4 caps, Simmonds 7. Simmonds (for me) hasn't impressed any more than Shields in any game, and is injured. Clifford also has 7 caps, and equally has never particularly impressed for me, combined with the fact that he's a huge sicknote. Mercer is still only 21, and only anywhere near due to injury. I suspect he'll be in the mix soon enough, but do you really think he's in a position to seriously challenge for a place if all are fit?

Go on a rant, but you're a long way off at the moment. Shields had 2 reasonable (at worst) games in South Africa, one out of position and still did well. He had a bit of a bad showing in the first AI, but he's barely played any rugby for months, and even you are willing to admit that he looked alright.

Maybe Wilson has been hard done by, but did anyone really expect him to step up so well?

Wilson was superb in Argentina so I did.
I’d say Shields was poor against SA, including the summer tour - and ok against NZ and Aus.
Both Simmonds and Clifford have at least had standout moments in their appearances. Shields certainly has not. He’s improving but I’d rather he improved at Wasps and was then selected, rather than improve in an England shirt.

[Mikey Brown]

While I’m at it. Is it ridiculous to think Mako doesn’t necessarily come straight back in? Or we find some balance of a strong scrummager paired with the excellent carrying and handling of Vunipola/Sinkler on either side, and retain some firepower on the bench?

This argument would make a lot more sense if Cole/Williams had made more of a recent impression. Maybe I’m stronger carried away with Moon but I really like him.

With Hartley on the bench (which I’ve argued for for a long time) it would be nice to try and keep something back to make an impact. We’ll possibly have Launch/Lawes, Cokanisiga and maybe Hughes/Simmonds/Curry? Annoyingly we’ve manoeuvred ourselves out of having Care on the bench who was consistently able to up the pace.

[Raggs]

Moon was solid, but are more of his high ratings due to him not being bad, having been chucked in at the deep end and coping? I'd take Mako every time. Marler would have been a serious contender, Genge may yet be.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah, he seemed to look a lot more involved against Aus. But he’s been given several free caps in order to get to that point. Wilson has to bust his guts every single week for Newcastle, put in a great performance for England and then still wait another year to get a proper shot, and not even get it in his best position.

This is the stuff that irks people. Clifford, Simmonds, Mercer etc. get a game or two and are out the door the second they don’t have a great game.

Shields may well grow into it and become a very good player. It would be nice if he had to earn it the same way everyone else does though.

?

Shields has had 4 caps, Simmonds 7. Simmonds (for me) hasn't impressed any more than Shields in any game, and is injured. Clifford also has 7 caps, and equally has never particularly impressed for me, combined with the fact that he's a huge sicknote. Mercer is still only 21, and only anywhere near due to injury. I suspect he'll be in the mix soon enough, but do you really think he's in a position to seriously challenge for a place if all are fit?

Go on a rant, but you're a long way off at the moment. Shields had 2 reasonable (at worst) games in South Africa, one out of position and still did well. He had a bit of a bad showing in the first AI, but he's barely played any rugby for months, and even you are willing to admit that he looked alright.

Maybe Wilson has been hard done by, but did anyone really expect him to step up so well?

Wilson was superb in Argentina so I did.
I’d say Shields was poor against SA, including the summer tour - and ok against NZ and Aus.
Both Simmonds and Clifford have at least had standout moments in their appearances. Shields certainly has not. He’s improving but I’d rather he improved at Wasps and was then selected, rather than improve in an England shirt.

Yep. 100% agree.

Simmonds has had 2 or 3 stand-out games. Shields has either been pretty anonymous or outright bad.

I’m willing to give him a chance, but like the others, I don’t feel like he’s earned his spot.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah, he seemed to look a lot more involved against Aus. But he’s been given several free caps in order to get to that point. Wilson has to bust his guts every single week for Newcastle, put in a great performance for England and then still wait another year to get a proper shot, and not even get it in his best position.

This is the stuff that irks people. Clifford, Simmonds, Mercer etc. get a game or two and are out the door the second they don’t have a great game.

Shields may well grow into it and become a very good player. It would be nice if he had to earn it the same way everyone else does though.

?

Shields has had 4 caps, Simmonds 7. Simmonds (for me) hasn't impressed any more than Shields in any game, and is injured. Clifford also has 7 caps, and equally has never particularly impressed for me, combined with the fact that he's a huge sicknote. Mercer is still only 21, and only anywhere near due to injury. I suspect he'll be in the mix soon enough, but do you really think he's in a position to seriously challenge for a place if all are fit?

Go on a rant, but you're a long way off at the moment. Shields had 2 reasonable (at worst) games in South Africa, one out of position and still did well. He had a bit of a bad showing in the first AI, but he's barely played any rugby for months, and even you are willing to admit that he looked alright.

Maybe Wilson has been hard done by, but did anyone really expect him to step up so well?

Wilson has looked very good for quite a while.

I’m talking about players getting a consistent run of starts in the side. While I see Simmonds has a couple more caps than I thought. He got a start vs Samoa in the Autumn. Italy and then Wales in the 6 nations where I think he got yanked fairly early on and didn’t look that great. I see he did actually come back to start in the Ireland game, which as I said I have tried my best to forget.

Clifford has 2 starts, 1 in a friendly, in his 10 caps. Not sure what to read into that.

I feel that “barely playing any rugby for months” is a problem for some and not others. Why the massive question mark about me saying he has to fight for a start like Wilson did?

[Mikey Brown]

Moon was solid, but are more of his high ratings due to him not being bad, having been chucked in at the deep end and coping? I'd take Mako every time. Marler would have been a serious contender, Genge may yet be.

Yeah, I don’t know how much of this is just me being pleasantly surprised with Moon not looking out of his depth. I think he’s been really physical around the park too but no idea what his stats look like.

My bigger concern is we have what Vunipola/Sinkler offer for a full 80 in some form.

[Puja]

Moon was solid, but are more of his high ratings due to him not being bad, having been chucked in at the deep end and coping? I'd take Mako every time. Marler would have been a serious contender, Genge may yet be.

Yeah, I don’t know how much of this is just me being pleasantly surprised with Moon not looking out of his depth. I think he’s been really physical around the park too but no idea what his stats look like.

My bigger concern is we have what Vunipola/Sinkler offer for a full 80 in some form.

Moon destroying Australia's scrum was above "not being out of his depth" to me. Yes, they were poor, but not everyone would've put them away like he did. Combined with him looking solid against NZ and SA's scrums and I'm very happy with him.

He's not ahead of Mako for a start by a long shot, but Genge is going to need to come back strong if he's going to be back in the XXIII.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Moon was solid, but are more of his high ratings due to him not being bad, having been chucked in at the deep end and coping? I'd take Mako every time. Marler would have been a serious contender, Genge may yet be.

Yeah, I don’t know how much of this is just me being pleasantly surprised with Moon not looking out of his depth. I think he’s been really physical around the park too but no idea what his stats look like.

My bigger concern is we have what Vunipola/Sinkler offer for a full 80 in some form.

Moon destroying Australia's scrum was above "not being out of his depth" to me. Yes, they were poor, but not everyone would've put them away like he did. Combined with him looking solid against NZ and SA's scrums and I'm very happy with him.

He's not ahead of Mako for a start by a long shot, but Genge is going to need to come back strong if he's going to be back in the XXIII.

Puja

I’d play him just so we get to see more of his ‘passing’.

[fivepointer]

Moon has been very good. he reminds me of Matt Mullan. Nothing startling in the loose, but rarely bossed in the scrums and ultra reliable and consistent. He's a genuine WC contender.
Genge has some catching up to do.
On Shields I think its entirely reasonable to want to see some evidence that makes him a better bet than a number of similar players. He's been completely unremarkable in his 5 games to date.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah. Moon is right in the mix (I did say I thought he’d be a surprise hit).

I think it really depends on Genge’s form and even more so on his scrummaging. There’s no doubt that he’s very good in the loose and a very physical defender, but Eddie generally seems to favour having one set-piece first option (Marler > Moon) and one who is better around the park. Given Mako has the latter sewn up (if he’s fit) Genge’s ability in the scrum is what it will come down to. If it’s good enough, he leapfrogs Moon, but if it’s not, his ability in the loose alone won’t be enough to swing it IMO.

[Oakboy]

Has Moon got a decent record of staying fit? I don't remember seeing much about him till recently. If he stays fit, he is the perfect understudy to Mako and against some opposition may be the best starter. I always preferred Marler starting with Mako rampaging for the last 30.

[Freddo]

BBC Sport users have selected their England XV:

Kinda shows how fickle some fans can be.

Daly at 15 is surprising, as is Big Joe starting in Japan based on a couple of tests.

I'm all for seeing more of Cokanasiga, and I definitely want to see him start the majority of 6Ns matches. He has promise, but needs more game time.

As for Daly, I wouldn't be too upset seeing him back on the wing and then coming into midfield looking for work where he can be a proper handful.

Had a look at the BBC team selector a couple of days ago and you could only choose Daly at FB as he wasn't a choice for wing or centre. I think everyone would have him in their team so that's why he was chosen there simply to have him in the side.

[Danno]

Robshaw with a line out game sounds good to me. Just glad we have actual options now instead of just selecting who ever is fit.

Props for pasting the telegraph article.

[WaspInWales]

BBC Sport users have selected their England XV:

Kinda shows how fickle some fans can be.

Daly at 15 is surprising, as is Big Joe starting in Japan based on a couple of tests.

I'm all for seeing more of Cokanasiga, and I definitely want to see him start the majority of 6Ns matches. He has promise, but needs more game time.

As for Daly, I wouldn't be too upset seeing him back on the wing and then coming into midfield looking for work where he can be a proper handful.

Had a look at the BBC team selector a couple of days ago and you could only choose Daly at FB as he wasn't a choice for wing or centre. I think everyone would have him in their team so that's why he was chosen there simply to have him in the side.

Ahh wasn't aware of that. Cheers.

I probably would've put him there too if that was the only choice for him.

[WaspInWales]

Has Moon got a decent record of staying fit? I don't remember seeing much about him till recently. If he stays fit, he is the perfect understudy to Mako and against some opposition may be the best starter. I always preferred Marler starting with Mako rampaging for the last 30.

What if he was only 50%. Would you take a half Moon?

[Rich]

I’d say Shields was poor against SA, including the summer tour - and ok against NZ and Aus.
Both Simmonds and Clifford have at least had standout moments in their appearances. Shields certainly has not. He’s improving but I’d rather he improved at Wasps and was then selected, rather than improve in an England shirt.

We know that Shields can play better rugby than the best we've seen from Clifford.

There are 9 games left for England before the RWC.

The squad is set now...Jones will pick from his current squad (plus those like the Vunipola brothers, JJ and Wartson, Lauchbury who were out injured.

I can see Cole or Brown sneaking in if Jones decides on three tight heads and if Daly doesn't impress in the 6N.

[Scrumhead]

We don’t know that Shields can play better rugby than Clifford at all.

As Mells said, Clifford has had some stand out moments in his limited appearances for England. Shields’ stand-out moments so far have been bad rather than good.

It’s not a like-for-like comparison and I wouldn’t pick Clifford, but your undying love for Shields seems to have no factual basis and he’s got a lot of work to do to get most people to back his selection.

[Stom]

I’d say Shields was poor against SA, including the summer tour - and ok against NZ and Aus.
Both Simmonds and Clifford have at least had standout moments in their appearances. Shields certainly has not. He’s improving but I’d rather he improved at Wasps and was then selected, rather than improve in an England shirt.

We know that Shields can play better rugby than the best we've seen from Clifford.

There are 9 games left for England before the RWC.

The squad is set now...Jones will pick from his current squad (plus those like the Vunipola brothers, JJ and Wartson, Lauchbury who were out injured.

I can see Cole or Brown sneaking in if Jones decides on three tight heads and if Daly doesn't impress in the 6N.

How do we know that? Clifford has put in some pretty damn good performances for Quins and for England u20s. Shields has only ever done anything in the defense optional world of SR. In the Prem so far he's been shunt. For England so far he's been shunt.

[Raggs]

When did Clifford have standout moments for England? The only one I can think of is against Wales in the end of season game, when there was a bouncing ball he pounced on and sprinted in, whilst the welsh all called for a knock on.

[Mellsblue]

Even if you accept that’s the only one, which it’s not, it’s still more than Shields has shown.

[Stom]

When did Clifford have standout moments for England? The only one I can think of is against Wales in the end of season game, when there was a bouncing ball he pounced on and sprinted in, whilst the welsh all called for a knock on.

Unfortunately for Jack so far, his England appearances have been generally good - some decent carries, some good tackles and good positioning, some decent awareness - with a handful of brainfarts thrown in.

Which is understandable when the poor guy is 25 and has played less than 100 pro games.

I wouldn't select him for England until 2020. And only then if he plays the rest of this season injury free and then the first half of next season he starts to put in some good performances. So far, since his return, he's been OK.

[Stom]

Even if you accept that’s the only one, which it’s not, it’s still more than Shields has shown.

TBF, let's not get into hyperbole... he did make a couple of decent impacts against Aus.

But on the other hand, my dead grandmother could have made a decent impact against that Aus team!