Team against Italy

[Son of Mathonwy]

I think our continued slow starts and lack of attacking ability can be firmly blamed on the coaches. Players missing tackles can't.

If we are playing off the pace we will execute everything less well, including tackling. Not saying that the players don't have any questions to answer on the tackling, but it's definitely part of the "slow start".

IMHO the "slow starts" are all part of Gatball. It's not a high intensity tactic - it's a sustained smothering and negation of the opposition. If the opposition play at high enough tempo/intensity with sufficient accuracy, they will stretch us to breaking point and beyond. That IMHO is what happens when we have a "slow start" against a decent team. Saturday saw this in spades.

I'm not sure it is deliberate. On previous tours we have started badly then got better as time went by. And we keep hearing reports of a rollicking at half time. I'm not sure what the problem is, or why Gatland hasn't gripped it over 8 years.

We'll never know until Gatland goes. Whatever the cause it's unacceptable, and it's unacceptable that Gatland hasn't dealt with it (this does fuel my suspicion that it's a consequence of Gatball, and not some independent factor).

[Numbers]

And Amos wouldn't have scored this.

I'd say that is a matter of opinion, I don't know many people who think Cuthbert has the potential of Amos. Cuthbert was very good on the SA tour, since then he has looked average at best, when Gwyn Jones calls you out on telly then you know you must have played poorly.

[wayneha50]

i think Cuthbert is horribly out of form & shouldn't be playing - i cannot for the life of me understand calling up Tom James, who has been electric for the Blues, & then dropping him totally after just one game; I expect Cuthbert would be playing against Italy if he wasn't injured - i think Gatland likes big wingers as they have very little chance of them being put into space under Gatball

still wondering how Howley manages to stay as attacking coach of a team that has no attacking moves bar kicking & plowing headfirst into defenders

[Billyfish]

First try.

That kind of supports the point though. Excellent finisher when he's on top of game. Not much more than that though.

[Sandydragon]

Would any of you have been tempted to start Priestland and see if you can get a bit more out of Roberts?

Priestland looks to have some confidence back. So yes, I would.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I'm not sure what Anscombe has got.

I've seen very little of him since he came north. In NZ he was a very good 10 and 15. Steady rather than spectacular but an excellent decision maker and good passer and kicker.

[Spiffy]

Amos isn't half the player Cuthbert could be. In fact, he's not really international class, IMO. Nipper is a terrific player who has yet to prove himself at any level. I'm not sure what Anscombe has got.

I haven't seen this. As an out and out finisher Cuthbert was/could be superb. As a rugby player then Amos is the better bet.

Cuthbert is a powerful and evasive runner. He just doesn't do it often enough. His only real weakness is his defence, which is poor.

But that's half the game.

[UKHamlet]

Tell that to Barry John

[Renniks]

And Amos wouldn't have scored this.

What happened to this Cuthbert?! Did the beard lose him all his ability?

Ignoring his awful defence for a moment (Send him my thanks by the way) - when was the last time he looked this good in attack?!

[UKHamlet]

And Amos wouldn't have scored this.

What happened to this Cuthbert?! Did the beard lose him all his ability?

Ignoring his awful defence for a moment (Send him my thanks by the way) - when was the last time he looked this good in attack?!

Cuthbert is at his best when he's allowed to run at players with the ball in hand. This rarely happens. That's what happened. No-one ever gives Cuthbert a ball to run on to.

[UKHamlet]

First try.

That kind of supports the point though. Excellent finisher when he's on top of game. Not much more than that though.

It doesn't support the point at all. He's not just a finisher, he consistently beats people, hands off, completely out paces Mike Brown, who is no slouch. He even has a step. He's no Shane for sure, but he's far from just a finisher. Take a look at the try he scores for the Lions against Oz, he beats three men, one with sheer pace, another with a hand off and another admittedly blocked by BOD. Edit: make that four men.

[Mikeyv]

No Cardiff players in the starting XV.

I wonder if that's ever happened before?

Cuthbert should have been left out ages ago and told to come back when he'd regained some form.

But Gatland played Priestland for way too long imo, when Biggar was clearly a better choice.

You can call it loyalty, but I think it can work against a player who is struggling.

[cadofyddol]

Totally. He usually does this. In fact the only time I can remember him even hinting that the coaching was found wanting was when a shell-shocked Gatland was cornered for an interview after our demolition by Ireland in 2014. He quickly changed his tune later and blamed it all on the players though.

As you say, if this was a one off, blame the players. Since this is a very long-running problem, blame the management for not finding a way to overcome it.

I think our continued slow starts and lack of attacking ability can be firmly blamed on the coaches. Players missing tackles can't.

Except we were clearly targetting Vunipola. This created space out wide that led to missed tackles. That must have been a coaching tactic - stop Vunipola and they've got nothing lads. Except for that Itoje fella, turns out he's quite good, which surprised no-one except us on Saturday. The coaches have to accept their share of the blame.

I'm not sure I buy this, targeting Vunipola led to miss tackles line that Nugget is also saying. It may have led to more space and line breaks, but missed tackles are a separate issue. Would you have expected the Welsh players to have normally completed the tackles that they had missed? They fell off tackles that they should have made, in those instances it wasn't a case of England exploiting the space they had made, it was simply poor tackling that led to those line breaks.

[joshfishkins]

I think our continued slow starts and lack of attacking ability can be firmly blamed on the coaches. Players missing tackles can't.

Except we were clearly targetting Vunipola. This created space out wide that led to missed tackles. That must have been a coaching tactic - stop Vunipola and they've got nothing lads. Except for that Itoje fella, turns out he's quite good, which surprised no-one except us on Saturday. The coaches have to accept their share of the blame.

I'm not sure I buy this, targeting Vunipola led to miss tackles line that Nugget is also saying. It may have led to more space and line breaks, but missed tackles are a separate issue. Would you have expected the Welsh players to have normally completed the tackles that they had missed? They fell off tackles that they should have made, in those instances it wasn't a case of England exploiting the space they had made, it was simply poor tackling that led to those line breaks.

Ah, c'mon. It's much, much harder to tackle someone once they've built up a head of steam and you've had to turn to chase them. I'm not saying it was the sole reason - and to be fair the welsh players looked knackered even during the anthems - but it was a contributory factor.

[Son of Mathonwy]

You know what's coming, though. "These players deserve the chance to put things right" by steamrollering a team even Ireland got 50 against. Hoo-bloody-ray.

Prophetic stuff. Unfortunately.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35814821

[Eugene Wrayburn]

And Amos wouldn't have scored this.

What happened to this Cuthbert?! Did the beard lose him all his ability?

Ignoring his awful defence for a moment (Send him my thanks by the way) - when was the last time he looked this good in attack?!

Cuthbert is at his best when he's allowed to run at players with the ball in hand. This rarely happens. That's what happened. No-one ever gives Cuthbert a ball to run on to.

And when they do he unfortunately drops it.

[Billyfish]

First try.

That kind of supports the point though. Excellent finisher when he's on top of game. Not much more than that though.

It doesn't support the point at all. He's not just a finisher, he consistently beats people, hands off, completely out paces Mike Brown, who is no slouch. He even has a step. He's no Shane for sure, but he's far from just a finisher. Take a look at the try he scores for the Lions against Oz, he beats three men, one with sheer pace, another with a hand off and another admittedly blocked by BOD. Edit: make that four men.

All these things you write of make for a great finisher. And all the above needs to be written in the past tense.

I think his "decline" may have coincided with Gatball going wider and with less round the corner. Meant the oppo defence was less stretched along the tram lines and both wings have had to come inside a bit more. So agree, to an extent he's not getting the kind of ball he used to thrive off any more.

[Tre]

What happened to this Cuthbert?! Did the beard lose him all his ability?

Ignoring his awful defence for a moment (Send him my thanks by the way) - when was the last time he looked this good in attack?!

Cuthbert is at his best when he's allowed to run at players with the ball in hand. This rarely happens. That's what happened. No-one ever gives Cuthbert a ball to run on to.

And when they do he unfortunately drops it.

Harsh.

He's out of form, and has been for a while. Instead of leaving him at Cardiff to try and regain some form the injury crisis we've had in the back 3 has meant he's had to play. It hasn't done him any good to be playing for Wales when he's so horribly out of form.

[welshsaint]

So drop him completely, that will do his confidence the world of good.

[Tre]

So drop him completely, that will do his confidence the world of good.

Presumably they would have a word with him rather than just leaving him out.

If he'd just been playing for Cardiff since the world cup and focussing on that, then it's possible his confidence can get rebuilt. As it is, chucking him in when he's in hopeless form and the subsequent abuse he gets is not doing him any good.

[Sandydragon]

Agree with Tre. Every player has the odd poor game and provided they have some credit in the bank its not a problem. But players like Cuthbert and Priestland kept their spots for a long time after they had shown that it wasn't the odd game. In both cases, being exposed to the ridicule that comes from playing poorly wouldn't not have helped their confidence.

Cuthbert is only there because there were few alternatives at the start of the 6N. Amos has recovered from his injury so even if Cuthbert isn't injured, one suspects he might have been dropped anyway. If Halfpenny were fit and Liam could move to the wing, then I suspect Cuthbert wouldn't have featured at all this 6N.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Agree with Tre. Every player has the odd poor game and provided they have some credit in the bank its not a problem. But players like Cuthbert and Priestland kept their spots for a long time after they had shown that it wasn't the odd game. In both cases, being exposed to the ridicule that comes from playing poorly wouldn't not have helped their confidence.

Cuthbert is only there because there were few alternatives at the start of the 6N. Amos has recovered from his injury so even if Cuthbert isn't injured, one suspects he might have been dropped anyway. If Halfpenny were fit and Liam could move to the wing, then I suspect Cuthbert wouldn't have featured at all this 6N.

This may be true, but the official word is that he change is only because of Cuthbert's injury. Personally, I think, if Amos would have taken the spot anyway it would be better to come out and say it (ie just to be fair to Amos).

[Sandydragon]

Agree with Tre. Every player has the odd poor game and provided they have some credit in the bank its not a problem. But players like Cuthbert and Priestland kept their spots for a long time after they had shown that it wasn't the odd game. In both cases, being exposed to the ridicule that comes from playing poorly wouldn't not have helped their confidence.

Cuthbert is only there because there were few alternatives at the start of the 6N. Amos has recovered from his injury so even if Cuthbert isn't injured, one suspects he might have been dropped anyway. If Halfpenny were fit and Liam could move to the wing, then I suspect Cuthbert wouldn't have featured at all this 6N.

This may be true, but the official word is that he change is only because of Cuthbert's injury. Personally, I think, if Amos would have taken the spot anyway it would be better to come out and say it (ie just to be fair to Amos).

I agree. Maybe if Cuthbert wasn't injured he might still be playing - who knows with Gatland. His loyalty to struggling players is legendary.

[Billyfish]

Webb earning his place.

[Billyfish]

Webb earning his place.