RugbyRebels

I think if Tandy keeps the defence tight and Russell gets the backs moving then its either going to work for Toonie and he keeps his job or he gets fired

I also think considering how shite wales have been recently and in the pro 14 that a win is a must

Big D wrote:
The point about Edinburgh is a good one. But his (RC) initial challenge was to make Edinburgh competitive, which I think he has done. Now the challenge should be to evolve the way they play or leave so someone else can have a go. The SRU seem sweet on Hodge despite no signs he is capable, which is a worry.

This is spot on. Cockerill did that first bit and did it well. I am going to say that with the players available to him, and budget freed up, it should not have been too difficult, but he did it.
However I think he is very set in his ways and doubles down on what he knows when challenged. That was the lesson from Leicester. Couldn't move on , adapt. Serious doubts he can take them much further.

Hodge is a difficult one. For me, Edinburgh's problem is now at 10. Cockerill was given budget and favours (moving Pyrgos) to fill 9 and 10 from external sources, 9 is ok, 10 a shambles. Edin can't move on with VDW. No backs coach can solve that one

septic 9 wrote:Townsend has made errors, that's for sure, but he has the best record of any Scottish coach ever. Facts are inconvenient for the naysayers

That shouldn't mean he is above any criticism though. He deserves credit for his win/loss record (especially v tier 1 nations at home), some of the early performances and for seemingly changing his game plans for the last 6N but I think it is fair to question whether a different coach that hadn't been appointed the way he had in replacing Scotland's most successful coach at the time, would have survived the World Cup the way he did.

Interestingly he and Cotters records are very similar, played 35 W 19 v played 36 and won 19, 901 points v 884 points for, and 82 v 81 tries against. Big difference in points conceded and tries for, presumably due to VCs first 6N and the great massacre of Twickenham. Both capped 28 players in almost the same number of games.

Good wee breakdown here: https://ontopofthemoon.com/2020/10/13/t ... ree-years/

septic 9 wrote: Hodge is a difficult one. For me, Edinburgh's problem is now at 10. Cockerill was given budget and favours (moving Pyrgos) to fill 9 and 10 from external sources, 9 is ok, 10 a shambles. Edin can't move on with VDW. No backs coach can solve that one

I am not sure Hodge should escape that criticism though.

The Scotland backs under him weren't too exciting, O'Halloran got a better tune out them almost immediately. The Edinburgh backs have shown little improvement in skillset since he has been involved. Too often they relied on Kinghorn and now Graham and VdM to do something magical.

I can get behind the argument that RC has stifled gameplan and recruitment, but not that Hodge is blameless in the lack of progression some of the backs have made.

Big D wrote:

septic 9 wrote: Hodge is a difficult one. For me, Edinburgh's problem is now at 10. Cockerill was given budget and favours (moving Pyrgos) to fill 9 and 10 from external sources, 9 is ok, 10 a shambles. Edin can't move on with VDW. No backs coach can solve that one

I am not sure Hodge should escape that criticism though.

The Scotland backs under him weren't too exciting, O'Halloran got a better tune out them almost immediately. The Edinburgh backs have shown little improvement in skillset since he has been involved. Too often they relied on Kinghorn and now Graham and VdM to do something magical.

I can get behind the argument that RC has stifled gameplan and recruitment, but not that Hodge is blameless in the lack of progression some of the backs have made.

Yup. If Hodge has significant influence and Edinburgh backs play that way then he's accountable. If he's not being listened to by RC then he's also not the right man for the job.

Big D wrote:

septic 9 wrote:Townsend has made errors, that's for sure, but he has the best record of any Scottish coach ever. Facts are inconvenient for the naysayers

That shouldn't mean he is above any criticism though.

he isn't, no-one is, ever.

But his record stands comparison to any Scotland coach, ever. Far better than most. And the closest, Cotter, benefitted from the Glasgow backs, developed by Townsend

Big D wrote:

septic 9 wrote: Hodge is a difficult one. For me, Edinburgh's problem is now at 10. Cockerill was given budget and favours (moving Pyrgos) to fill 9 and 10 from external sources, 9 is ok, 10 a shambles. Edin can't move on with VDW. No backs coach can solve that one

I am not sure Hodge should escape that criticism though.

The Scotland backs under him weren't too exciting, O'Halloran got a better tune out them almost immediately. The Edinburgh backs have shown little improvement in skillset since he has been involved. Too often they relied on Kinghorn and now Graham and VdM to do something magical.

I can get behind the argument that RC has stifled gameplan and recruitment, but not that Hodge is blameless in the lack of progression some of the backs have made.

Again no-one is above criticism. But hampered by a gameplan and VDW, its a tad harsh to blame Hodge.

O'Halloran was a good backs coach, not sure he got anything more out of Edinburgh backs - only KInghorn and Graham featured, wide or back 3 players - who cannot prosper without some sort of play maker inside. Those 2 have shone for Edin under Hodge

It's great to be doing well in comparison to other coaches and eras, but I still think many coaches would hope to get more as a team from this group of players. Am I over-estimating them, or is there considerably more raw talent in this playing group than there has been for the last 15 years or so I've been watching Scotland? It still feels like every time we improve in one area we lose our ability in another.

I don't know what has to happen at Edinburgh in order for them to open up a bit, but I agree that's an issue. A big success? A big failure?

I think ye are 2 proper 2nd rows away from as being as good as anyone in the championship but those backs wont get enough opportunities without some serious power upfront....gilchrist flopping over to concede penalties doesn't cut it at national level

See I think Cummings and Gray with Skinner off the bench is pretty handy, but agree broadly about the power up front. We just don't seem to throw our weight around enough.

Mikey Brown wrote:It's great to be doing well in comparison to other coaches and eras, but I still think many coaches would hope to get more as a team from this group of players. Am I over-estimating them, or is there considerably more raw talent in this playing group than there has been for the last 15 years or so I've been watching Scotland? It still feels like every time we improve in one area we lose our ability in another.

I don't know what has to happen at Edinburgh in order for them to open up a bit, but I agree that's an issue. A big success? A big failure?

every Scotland coach for the pro era began has had that charge levelled at them - "should have done better with that group of players". And every RWC cycle, I read that "this is the best squad ever ever" as the hopeful optimism rises.

Season on season, in top level rugby standards rise all over. Some years its a bit stagnant, a really top side may have a season or two just below optimum, but taken over the piece standards a ever improving. Its more difficult to beat well organised lower tier teams, and the top ones cruise on upwards.
And yet Townsend against the toughest back drop ever, has the best record. He has and will make mistakes, and I'll call the ones I think poor when I see them. But the facts is the facts, and his record is second to none. As the song says, you don't know what you've got till its gone. The big yellow taxi isn't due for Townsend for a while yet

I feel like you think I'm saying Townsend should go. I'm not. I just think there are some weak-points in our game that would be quite reasonable targets for an ambitious coach like him to address.

septic 9 wrote:

Big D wrote:

septic 9 wrote: Hodge is a difficult one. For me, Edinburgh's problem is now at 10. Cockerill was given budget and favours (moving Pyrgos) to fill 9 and 10 from external sources, 9 is ok, 10 a shambles. Edin can't move on with VDW. No backs coach can solve that one

I am not sure Hodge should escape that criticism though.

The Scotland backs under him weren't too exciting, O'Halloran got a better tune out them almost immediately. The Edinburgh backs have shown little improvement in skillset since he has been involved. Too often they relied on Kinghorn and now Graham and VdM to do something magical.

I can get behind the argument that RC has stifled gameplan and recruitment, but not that Hodge is blameless in the lack of progression some of the backs have made.

Again no-one is above criticism. But hampered by a gameplan and VDW, its a tad harsh to blame Hodge.

O'Halloran was a good backs coach, not sure he got anything more out of Edinburgh backs - only KInghorn and Graham featured, wide or back 3 players - who cannot prosper without some sort of play maker inside. Those 2 have shone for Edin under Hodge

I don't think there were any Edinburgh backs under JOH for Scotland, maybe the odd one. The crux of my point is simply in the main Hodge doesn't appear to be improving the skillset of the players he coaches, including JVdW (who is training with Scotland this week for what can only be disaster planning). Stripping away the game plan and it is highly debateable (hence our chat) whether Hodge is actually improving players. You name check Kinghorn but even he has struggled to adapt his game effectively now teams are able to shut him down.

Going back to how this chat moved on to Hodge, even if he shoulders none of the blame I would still be concerned if he was the heir to the Edinburgh throne.

Big D wrote:

septic 9 wrote:

Big D wrote:
I am not sure Hodge should escape that criticism though.

The Scotland backs under him weren't too exciting, O'Halloran got a better tune out them almost immediately. The Edinburgh backs have shown little improvement in skillset since he has been involved. Too often they relied on Kinghorn and now Graham and VdM to do something magical.

I can get behind the argument that RC has stifled gameplan and recruitment, but not that Hodge is blameless in the lack of progression some of the backs have made.

Again no-one is above criticism. But hampered by a gameplan and VDW, its a tad harsh to blame Hodge.

O'Halloran was a good backs coach, not sure he got anything more out of Edinburgh backs - only KInghorn and Graham featured, wide or back 3 players - who cannot prosper without some sort of play maker inside. Those 2 have shone for Edin under Hodge

I don't think there were any Edinburgh backs under JOH for Scotland, maybe the odd one. The crux of my point is simply in the main Hodge doesn't appear to be improving the skillset of the players he coaches, including JVdW (who is training with Scotland this week for what can only be disaster planning). Stripping away the game plan and it is highly debateable (hence our chat) whether Hodge is actually improving players. You name check Kinghorn but even he has struggled to adapt his game effectively now teams are able to shut him down.

Going back to how this chat moved on to Hodge, even if he shoulders none of the blame I would still be concerned if he was the heir to the Edinburgh throne.

Kinghorn has improved his all round game a lot over the last couple of years, but his skills with the ball seem to have gone backwards if anything?

Mikey Brown wrote:I feel like you think I'm saying Townsend should go. I'm not. I just think there are some weak-points in our game that would be quite reasonable targets for an ambitious coach like him to address.

no, didn't think you personally are suggesting he should go. I'm putting some facts up there for the numpties that do. Those who live in the past, those who behave like schoolboy soccer fans, and those who pine for Cotter (who got booted upstairs then just booted in his last employment).
Townsend like all coaches will at some point need to be pushed, or more likely will decide its time to move on. He is a guy who will know if its time to go, but planned and not mid season and unlikely to be mid contract

Kinghorn hasn’t kicked on as I thought he would. His positioning/ reading of the game seems better, but something almost seems not quite right. Hope he’s not old school Edinburgh and thinks he can rest on his laurels now he’s got a few Scotland caps. Depends what he wants with the pro rugby portion of his life, I suppose.

Will stop there as I’m indulging in unhelpful speculation. Not becoming of an internet messageboard, so it isn’t. His re-starts are probably still mint.

We’d better fecking beat wales. Not that Scottish teams have started the season particularly well, or are entitled to expect to do so given recent performances, but wales are there for the taking and they know it, I fancy.

Mikey Brown wrote:
Kinghorn has improved his all round game a lot over the last couple of years, but his skills with the ball seem to have gone backwards if anything?

he is a real and rare talent in attack, has always and still has issues with positioning and switching off in defence. But he worked on the latter and has been less exposed for Scotland than at 15.
That said, and I hate saying this, recently he has looked like he was doing a SHC. Thinks he is better than he is. I'm hoping its just tryin too hard with the limited then shit ball that gets past the 10 or the 2 centres. Time will tell

I see Sean Maitland is in Baa-Baas squad for next Sunday test v England :O, that means a likely debut for Van der Merwe from the start does it ?

I know we got off on the wrong note septic but I do like how you are honest regarding GT , I totally agree that he should not be anywhere near the sack, imho he needs the next 4yrs and only after that world cup does he get judged. Knowing the

Imho, he is starting to rebuild the squad after the last world cup which is good, its good to see youngsters/new players getting worthy caps and there is still the experienced pros there to balance things:).I

Hopefully we can get along better now septic .

septic 9 wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:
Kinghorn has improved his all round game a lot over the last couple of years, but his skills with the ball seem to have gone backwards if anything?

he is a real and rare talent in attack, has always and still has issues with positioning and switching off in defence. But he worked on the latter and has been less exposed for Scotland than at 15.
That said, and I hate saying this, recently he has looked like he was doing a SHC. Thinks he is better than he is. I'm hoping its just tryin too hard with the limited then shit ball that gets past the 10 or the 2 centres. Time will tell

Doesn't look that way to me. 18 months ago he was hitting soft shoulders at pace and using his size and speed. Recently he's been tentative and playing as if afraid to make a mistake. Feels to me like risk averse coaching and I'm worried the same will happen to darcy.

switchskier wrote:

septic 9 wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:
Kinghorn has improved his all round game a lot over the last couple of years, but his skills with the ball seem to have gone backwards if anything?

he is a real and rare talent in attack, has always and still has issues with positioning and switching off in defence. But he worked on the latter and has been less exposed for Scotland than at 15.
That said, and I hate saying this, recently he has looked like he was doing a SHC. Thinks he is better than he is. I'm hoping its just tryin too hard with the limited then shit ball that gets past the 10 or the 2 centres. Time will tell

Doesn't look that way to me. 18 months ago he was hitting soft shoulders at pace and using his size and speed. Recently he's been tentative and playing as if afraid to make a mistake. Feels to me like risk averse coaching and I'm worried the same will happen to darcy.

that's a valid point of view and feasible explanation. Might be a bit of both that and trying too hard sometimes - a terrible combination of taking wrong options in both directions, which would be loss of confidence and or bad coaching

Just as you cannot coach in what Graham has got (acceleration, step and pace), I'm doubtful it can be uncoached either, fortunately

Mikey Brown wrote:

General Zod wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Whoah. Richie Gray!

For whatever reason, I read this to the tune of the following advertising jingle...

I have never seen this before but it’s pretty amazing. I’m going to have that in my head for a while.

Just letting you know it's nearly a week later and this is still going round in my head. It's morphed slightly in to 'Whoah, Jonny Gray. He's victorious." etc. as of Saturday afternoon.

Are the English based guys being released for the weekend?

Just thinking 10 may be an issue if Finn isn't released and new dad Weir isn't available.

Big D wrote:Are the English based guys being released for the weekend?

Just thinking 10 may be an issue if Finn isn't released and new dad Weir isn't available.

dunno

I expect a very home based squad anyway. Hastings to start. VDW has been called up to training presumably as cover, god help us. I'd rather call up Horne Snr, or Chamerlain
Georgia Fri, Glas in action Sat and Edin Sun. Shambles of a fixture list for Scots

septic 9 wrote:

Big D wrote:Are the English based guys being released for the weekend?

Just thinking 10 may be an issue if Finn isn't released and new dad Weir isn't available.

dunno

I expect a very home based squad anyway. Hastings to start. VDW has been called up to training presumably as cover, god help us. I'd rather call up Horne Snr, or Chamerlain
Georgia Fri, Glas in action Sat and Edin Sun. Shambles of a fixture list for Scots

VdW there in prep for November. He isn't qualified yet.

Saw CdP in training pics so at least some of the England based guys are at training. Not sure if all are.