RugbyRebels

F me, if you think we play unattractive rugby now then by all means, give Baxter the reins.

Danno wrote:F me, if you think we play unattractive rugby now then by all means, give Baxter the reins.

This made me lol

jngf wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Seriously? This again ... I’ll ask the same questions that neither you or Oakboy can actually give a decent answer* to ...

1) Why is Eddie bad for English rugby?

2) Who is a better option?

*For avoidance of doubt, a decent answer requires some factual substance, not just your opinion.

If there’s nothing meaningful to back it up, change the record man.

Scrumhead, I think you’re near Trumpian in your lack of tolerance to different opinions to those you personally hold.

To answer

(I) Some of his selections have been truly crass (imo)
- he’s no further forward on picking a settled center partnership for instance and keeps picking mediocre players like Farrell, Ewels when there are better options
Plus on results in terms of World Cup he’s at same level as Brian Ashton - reached the final but lost it.

(ii) I’d look at Baxter or Diamond (I’ve have SCW back rather than Jones whose just cashing in now imo)

I dont know whats worse, the ad hominem or thinking that list of 3 would bring more successful, attractive rugby. If Diamond took charge of England I’d find them a hard team to get behind.

Diamond in charge could be fun.

I'm not on the Jones must go bandwagon but its only fair to point out that we didnt play well during the 6N's and havent exactly taken many steps forwards since the RWC.

Would be nice to see some development over the coming month.

jngf wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Seriously? This again ... I’ll ask the same questions that neither you or Oakboy can actually give a decent answer* to ...

1) Why is Eddie bad for English rugby?

2) Who is a better option?

*For avoidance of doubt, a decent answer requires some factual substance, not just your opinion.

If there’s nothing meaningful to back it up, change the record man.

Scrumhead, I think you’re near Trumpian in your lack of tolerance to different opinions to those you personally hold.

To answer

(I) Some of his selections have been truly crass (imo)
- he’s no further forward on picking a settled center partnership for instance and keeps picking mediocre players like Farrell, Ewels when there are better options
Plus on results in terms of World Cup he’s at same level as Brian Ashton - reached the final but lost it.

(ii) I’d look at Baxter or Diamond (I’ve have SCW back rather than Jones whose just cashing in now imo)

It’s not a ‘lack of tolerance’. You’re perfectly entitled to hold whatever opinion you like, I just find it frustrating that certain posters have a solidly anti-Eddie agenda without much to actually back it up. If anything, Eddie’s continued success just seems to reinforce your objections and it makes no sense to my logical, fact/data-driven mind.

I think I’ve been pretty clear over time that Eddie’s selections often annoy me and I often don’t like our style of play. However, I don’t see an obviously better alternative to Eddie right now and I’d prefer to win than play champagne rugby without the results.

As for your points in the quoted post, who would you pick at centre? Most of us (me included) consider Farrell to be hyped way over his ability, but I also recognise that there aren’t obviously better options at 12. Who would you pick? Same goes for lock ... who would you choose over Ewels? You’re always talking about us needing a ‘big, powerful’ lock, but you can only pick players that actually exist and we simply don’t have that giant, physical enforcer type available.

Did you really tout Steve Diamond as HC for England? Come on now ... Eddie isn’t the most likeable, but Diamond is surely worse in both attitude and coaching ability and has none of Eddie’s success record. Truly bizarre.

I could get behind Baxter, but he’s still young and needs to show he can develop Exeter’s style of play to demonstrate his test credentials IMO. Again, I find it a bit odd that you’d criticise our style of play under Eddie and call for Baxter whose team play mostly ugly, but effective rugby.

As for Lord Bald ... please ... have you heard him speak in the last decade? Oh and BTW, he’s a massive Farrell fanboy which would upset you straight away.

While I was writing my long reply, several said the same things for me ...

Scrumhead wrote:
It’s not a ‘lack of tolerance’. You’re perfectly entitled to hold whatever opinion you like, I just find it frustrating that certain posters have a solidly anti-Eddie agenda without much to actually back it up. If anything, Eddie’s continued success just seems to reinforce your objections and it makes no sense to my logical, fact/data-driven mind.
.

The worst thing is the dullness, in my view. My eyes glaze over whenever the conversation turns to:
Jones
Farrell
England backrows
The lions.

For these, it's like the record's stuck.

I don’t want to come across as ‘Trumpian’. I just can’t take someone who suggests Steve Diamond as a potential replacement for Eddie Jones and wants Itoje at 8 seriously.

It's more Trump-like to simply repeat oneself, ignoring anything presented as a counterargument.

fivepointer wrote:Diamond in charge could be fun.

I'm not on the Jones must go bandwagon but its only fair to point out that we didnt play well during the 6N's and havent exactly taken many steps forwards since the RWC.

Would be nice to see some development over the coming month.

The voice of logic and reason!

What I can't get my head around is how good our playing squad is potentially, even if, as Banquo points out, there is some danger of over-rating. I've watched successive England managers (call them head coaches or whatever) since Mike Davis. None have had as good a batch of players as now, IMO. We really should be starting to rip up trees. The team should be walking out KNOWING they will beat anyone convincingly, playing good rugby.

Has there ever been an England regime where a player as good as Willis does not get into the match squad?

What matters to me (and always has) is that we put a team on the park that plays to its best potential. I could not give a monkey's tickle who is in charge if that happens. If we are not good enough to beat top opposition, so be it, but we f*cking well are!!!

Oakboy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Diamond in charge could be fun.

I'm not on the Jones must go bandwagon but its only fair to point out that we didnt play well during the 6N's and havent exactly taken many steps forwards since the RWC.

Would be nice to see some development over the coming month.

The voice of logic and reason!

What I can't get my head around is how good our playing squad is potentially, even if, as Banquo points out, there is some danger of over-rating. I've watched successive England managers (call them head coaches or whatever) since Mike Davis. None have had as good a batch of players as now, IMO. We really should be starting to rip up trees. The team should be walking out KNOWING they will beat anyone convincingly, playing good rugby.

Has there ever been an England regime where a player as good as Willis does not get into the match squad?

What matters to me (and always has) is that we put a team on the park that plays to its best potential. I could not give a monkey's tickle who is in charge if that happens. If we are not good enough to beat top opposition, so be it, but we f*cking well are!!!

Willis is basically in his first opportunity to get in, maybe he's going to...

And a lot of countries seem pretty good for quality right now, just because we're strong doesn't mean we should walk over everyone else, it's basically a red queen situation, you need to run as fast as you can, just to stay where you are.

Raggs wrote:And a lot of countries seem pretty good for quality right now, just because we're strong doesn't mean we should walk over everyone else, it's basically a red queen situation, you need to run as fast as you can, just to stay where you are.

I'd actually disagree with this. France are stronger than they've been in many a year (although the depth will be tested this autumn), but everyone else seems to be in a slump. Wales are picking the likes of Rowlands, Tomkins, Williams, Holmes - none of them terrible players but no-one that England would've reasonably looked at - and still picking AWJ at the prime age of 82. Ireland appear to be suffering from our 2014-15 discovery that Farrell is an excellent defence coach, but needs to be very firmly kept in his box. New Zealand are trying to reinvent themselves after the horrendous failure of only getting to the RWC semis and are trying to replace some fairly iconic players (although they are still very, very strong, just not by their historic standards). Australia are Australia. And South Africa, who knows?

Puja

Ireland are suffering from a generation change as much as a dose of the Farrells. A lot of top players have come to the end of their careers and it remains to be seen if the new players are of the same calibre.

Raggs wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Diamond in charge could be fun.

I'm not on the Jones must go bandwagon but its only fair to point out that we didnt play well during the 6N's and havent exactly taken many steps forwards since the RWC.

Would be nice to see some development over the coming month.

The voice of logic and reason!

What I can't get my head around is how good our playing squad is potentially, even if, as Banquo points out, there is some danger of over-rating. I've watched successive England managers (call them head coaches or whatever) since Mike Davis. None have had as good a batch of players as now, IMO. We really should be starting to rip up trees. The team should be walking out KNOWING they will beat anyone convincingly, playing good rugby.

Has there ever been an England regime where a player as good as Willis does not get into the match squad?

What matters to me (and always has) is that we put a team on the park that plays to its best potential. I could not give a monkey's tickle who is in charge if that happens. If we are not good enough to beat top opposition, so be it, but we f*cking well are!!!

Willis is basically in his first opportunity to get in, maybe he's going to...

And a lot of countries seem pretty good for quality right now, just because we're strong doesn't mean we should walk over everyone else, it's basically a red queen situation, you need to run as fast as you can, just to stay where you are.

Yes, but top managers/coaches inspire. I believe firmly that IF our team was really well motivated such that it was a unit and better than the sum of its parts it could be special. I think most other countries' managers would willingly swap squads.

Is there not an argument to be made that our players, performing so well at international standard, so that we believe other coaches would gladly swap for them, may perhaps be an argument for Eddie?

Agreed Mr Raggs sir. I don't get any sense those players in the squad are sitting around with the chat being Eddie isn't a man to be listened to. There'll be bitching and moaning, but rugby players are shockingly moany when placed into a group, it's part of dealing with putting your body through so much in such a high pressure environment. But the players very rarely go off script, and that comes from a belief in what they're trying to do

Puja wrote:And in terms of results, I must've missed the bit where Brian Ashton's team beat New Zealand in their full pomp.

Puja

That was hardly a vintage NZ side with Cane and Barett on the flanks

jngf wrote:

Puja wrote:And in terms of results, I must've missed the bit where Brian Ashton's team beat New Zealand in their full pomp.

Puja

That was hardly a vintage NZ side with Cane and Barett on the flanks

Yeah, absolute walk in the park that lot. Their selection at blindside really destroyed the whole rest of the team that had won the past two world cups.

Puja

Hard to know when you only watch the highlights.

Also Cane is quality even if none of the Baretts impress me overly.

Scrumhead wrote:Hard to know when you only watch the highlights.

Ha

At least Barrett would have been available to scrum at lock if one of them got carded.

Although it would seem he has little in the way of backbone

ENGLAND
15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 43 caps)
14. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 51 caps)
13. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 30 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 57 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (c) (Saracens, 83 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 100 caps)
1. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 19 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 50 caps)
3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
4. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
5. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 65 caps)
6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 39 caps)
7. Jack Willis (Wasps, uncapped)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 52 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Tom Dunn, (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 60 caps)
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 36 caps)
19. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 4 caps)
20. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 24 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 3 caps)
22. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
23. Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 3 caps)

Still bits I don’t like about that (Itoje at 6 and Joseph on the wing), but on the whole pretty happy with that side. Particularly with Willis getting a start.