RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote:

Puja wrote:Some of that makes aggressively little sense and smacks of Jones changing things because he said he'd change things. Why do we need B&I Lion and experienced test match player Jamie George when we have Newcastle and Leicester's reserve hookers? Is Atkinson really going to play in the RWC? Why was Ludlow the captain in the summer and behind Chick and Martin now?

I'm happy that Quirke's there and we have moved on from Robson. Aside from that, I'm mostly confused.

Puja

Me too.

Given the shortage of top class hookers, retaining George would have made sense. Dolly as 3rd choice strikes me a promotion that isnt really deserved.

The Ludlow elevation I thought was a bit odd in the summer. Now he is discarded altogether. Really WTF was that all about?

More WTF with Davison getting in ahead of Heyes. That really makes absolutely no sense.

Atkinson is a bloody good player but this has surely come too late. Meantime players we have invested time and effort in like Lawrence and Marchant are overlooked.

I rate Freeman highly but do we need to have another back 3 player in the squad?

And George Ford has been seriously badly done to. He's a class player who still has a lot to offer.

If Jones intends to play Farrell at 12, then it's stupid to leave Ford out. He and Smith are the current standout 10s in English rugby. It seems that there will be no getting away from the traditional Farrell switch from 12 to 10 in the course of every game. Boring, innit.

Spiffy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:

Puja wrote:Some of that makes aggressively little sense and smacks of Jones changing things because he said he'd change things. Why do we need B&I Lion and experienced test match player Jamie George when we have Newcastle and Leicester's reserve hookers? Is Atkinson really going to play in the RWC? Why was Ludlow the captain in the summer and behind Chick and Martin now?

I'm happy that Quirke's there and we have moved on from Robson. Aside from that, I'm mostly confused.

Puja

Me too.

Given the shortage of top class hookers, retaining George would have made sense. Dolly as 3rd choice strikes me a promotion that isnt really deserved.

The Ludlow elevation I thought was a bit odd in the summer. Now he is discarded altogether. Really WTF was that all about?

More WTF with Davison getting in ahead of Heyes. That really makes absolutely no sense.

Atkinson is a bloody good player but this has surely come too late. Meantime players we have invested time and effort in like Lawrence and Marchant are overlooked.

I rate Freeman highly but do we need to have another back 3 player in the squad?

And George Ford has been seriously badly done to. He's a class player who still has a lot to offer.

If Jones intends to play Farrell at 12, then it's stupid to leave Ford out. He and Smith are the current standout 10s in English rugby. It seems that there will be no getting away from the traditional Farrell switch from 12 to 10 in the course of every game. Boring, innit.

I’m that angry, it makes me want to wipe my arse with a sock.

SDHoneymonster wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

fivepointer wrote:
Me too.

Given the shortage of top class hookers, retaining George would have made sense. Dolly as 3rd choice strikes me a promotion that isnt really deserved.

The Ludlow elevation I thought was a bit odd in the summer. Now he is discarded altogether. Really WTF was that all about?

More WTF with Davison getting in ahead of Heyes. That really makes absolutely no sense.

Atkinson is a bloody good player but this has surely come too late. Meantime players we have invested time and effort in like Lawrence and Marchant are overlooked.

I rate Freeman highly but do we need to have another back 3 player in the squad?

And George Ford has been seriously badly done to. He's a class player who still has a lot to offer.

All the above.

It comes to something when a back catalogue of three matches gets you, ie Dolly, in to the England squad.

Keeping Farrell over Ford just angers me.

No idea why we have three no8s and even less of an idea why we have three no9s when Jones has said on numerous occasions that carrying more than two is pointless.

Can really see in this squad the areas Jones has neglected to build proper depth over the years - he's stuffed it full of no.8s, two rookie scrum halves after continually forgoing the opportunity to give quality options not called Youngs or Care a proper run and players who can play at full back. There's an element of 'ah bugger it, you'll do' to it in places.

What's more, regarding the no.8 shirt, watch him then ignore all the actual no.8s and stick Tom Curry there instead!

Peej wrote:

Puja wrote:

SDHoneymonster wrote:

Eddie likes Davison as a potential RWC squad member as he can prop either side of the scrum. They tied Heyes to England over the summer so Wales or Ireland can no longer nab him so maybe it's best to let him carry on getting minutes under the belt for Leicester is the thinking? I thought the summer actually represented a bit of a sea change on that front with the captures of Heyes, Kelly and Randall and that we'd see Rodd and Lynagh get minutes v Tonga, but Eddie's obviously still not learned anything from the Redpath Incident as it shall henceforth be known...

Davison might theoretically be able to play both sides, but can he do it to a quality where we wouldn't be bricking it every time we had a scrum? Wasn't he the guy who was forced onto the wrong side in the European Cup a couple of years back and just got shunted backwards continually?

Puja

Has anyone been able to do this even competently since Matt Stevens?

I believe Andrew Porter is able to play both sides to a pretty high standard, although he's predominantly a tighthead now after playing mainly at loosehead through the Ireland age groups.

twitchy wrote:Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

Pretty happy with that - not convinced by Ewels or Chick but relieved that Eddie hasn't resorted to comfy pair of Billy Vunipola shaped slippers (...just yet ) . Ford unlucky to miss out to Farrell but that selection seems largely political.

The best I can say about that squad is you can still just about get a very good 23 out of it. My hope is that due to covid bubbles Eddie wasn’t able to do as much experimentation as he wanted last season, so is doing it now.

Really hope LCD, Itoje and Watson are all ok, or I might have to revise my first sentence.

Peej wrote:Oh good, Sarries with a point to prove coming up for Wasps this weekend......

There are some real oddities in there. Chick? Davison? Really? Two hookers when one of them went off with an injury at the weekend?

So at a guess:

1. Sinck
2. LCD (if not broken)
3. Genge
4. Lawes
5. Itoje
6. Underhill
7. Curry
8. Dombrandt

9. Youngs (FFS)
10. Smith
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Manu
14. Radwan
15. Steward

Wow

Interesting as to whether Underhill or Curry starts at 7 - think it will be the former with the latter reverting to 6 in all honesty (though I'd really like to see what Underhill could do at 6) - imo Dombrandt would blend better with Kamikaze kids then Sam Simmonds - and add a point of difference in terms of ballast and lineout jumping which Simmonds (being the same size if not not smaller Underhill and Curry would not) btw think Sam Simmonds is a class act but in the role that Earl played and not as a starting 8 at test level.

Timbo wrote:The best I can say about that squad is you can still just about get a very good 23 out of it. My hope is that due to covid bubbles Eddie wasn’t able to do as much experimentation as he wanted last season, so is doing it now.

Really hope LCD, Itoje and Watson are all ok, or I might have to revise my first sentence.

I'd like to think that's true but I think mainly the same mistake as the last World Cup cycle was made and it took a poor 6N to force Jones into changes. Strangely I think the two summer fixtures being against such weak opposition didn't do him any favours either; I think had England played Argentina again as they've tended to do recently during Lions tours we'd have a much better gauge of how ready some of these players are and Eddie wouldn't have been able to pick a squad that experimented for the sake of it. There were a lot of players across those two games who would not have been in the frame had England been touring against stronger opposition, correctly so IMO. I think he's trying a bit too hard to find rough diamonds and not actually appreciating some of the talent available at his disposal; I think we're in big danger of seeing a wasted generation with the likes of Lawrence and Marchant sadly.

Would be interested to know who people would like to see called up in case the LCD, Itoje and Watson injuries are all serious versus who they think will be. IMO George gets back in by necessity if LCD doesn't pull up (and of the four big names left out of the training squad I always thought George was the strangest), I'd like to see Ribbans or Ewers in for Itoje (I know Ewers doesn't play lock but if Itoje's out I'd be considering Lawes purely as a second row), and I'd bring in Lynagh for Watson. I suspect Eddie will call up the Cornish Pirates' fourth choice in all positions in that scenario, however, because you know, rough diamonds.

SDHoneymonster wrote:

Peej wrote:

Puja wrote:
Davison might theoretically be able to play both sides, but can he do it to a quality where we wouldn't be bricking it every time we had a scrum? Wasn't he the guy who was forced onto the wrong side in the European Cup a couple of years back and just got shunted backwards continually?

Puja

Has anyone been able to do this even competently since Matt Stevens?

I believe Andrew Porter is able to play both sides to a pretty high standard, although he's predominantly a tighthead now after playing mainly at loosehead through the Ireland age groups.

A little off topic here I know. But since it has been mentioned - Porter has moved back to loosehead with Leinster this season and is playing like an absolute beast. And Cian Healy with 100+ Ireland caps at loosehead, has had a couple of successful runs at TH for the province.

Predicted Ireland front row : Porter/Kelleher/Furlong.

This is such an unbelievably Jonesy squad. Mostly good, but weird positional balances and a load of WTF selections/omissions that feel like they can only possibly be about him making a point.

I look forward to the press conference where somebody politely enquiries about any single selection at all and he spits his dummy out about how he always gets everything wrong and the press know better than him.

Forgive me if I am amused by the stick that Jones is now getting! This squad is as close to being the right one as any that he has ever picked - say, about 80-85%. That has always been his standard, IMO.

If the rumour that Curry is being lined up for No8 has any truth, then wtf are three 8s doing in the squad? (I'm including Chick as an 8)

I'm home, so I can now put the squad in a sensible order:

Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ellis Genge (Leicester)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter)
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle)
Nic Dolly (Leicester)

Kyle Sinckler (Bristol)
Will Stuart (Bath)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton)
Charlie Ewels (Bath)
Jonny Hill (Exeter)

Tom Curry (Sale)
Sam Underhill (Bath)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton)
George Martin (Leicester)

Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter)
Callum Chick (Newcastle)


Ben Youngs (Leicester)
Harry Randall (Bristol)
Raffi Quirke (Sale)

Marcus Smith (Harlequins)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Mark Atkinson (Gloucester)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale)
Henry Slade (Exeter)

Jonny May (Gloucester)
Anthony Watson (Bath)
Max Malins (Saracens)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle)

Freddie Steward (Leicester)
George Furbank (Northampton)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton)

There was a quote somewhere from Jones that he has picked two FHs to contest the 10 shirt. With Puja's listing by position giving only three centres apart from Farrell, I am now wondering who from the seven listed back three players covers centre. If none of them do, then Smith might get more game time than I thought originally, even if it is off the bench.

malins or Furbank will take the 22 shirt IMO

Is Trevor Davison not a tighthead?

Timbo wrote:Is Trevor Davison not a tighthead?

I genuinely don't know - he occupies so little attention for me that I couldn't tell you and a google was not conclusive on his primary position as, like myself, he goes both ways. He's either stealing a place from Mako/Obano or Heyes, not sure which.

Puja

With the exception of Chick and Ewels, Atkinson on age and Furbank’s tache the squad has a good feel to it. That said still see Australia ending their 7 match losing streak

Puja wrote:

Timbo wrote:Is Trevor Davison not a tighthead?

I genuinely don't know - he occupies so little attention for me that I couldn't tell you and a google was not conclusive on his primary position as, like myself, he goes both ways. He's either stealing a place from Mako/Obano or Heyes, not sure which.

Puja

Prop : 33 times ( Loosehead Prop 58%, Tighthead Prop 42% )

I don't feel like the AIs will be a great deal of fun. Most of the left field selections won't see the 23, the bench will have a Dunn or two involved and some units look incredibly callow. And we have the last 15-20mins of each game to look forward to with our Lord and Saviour (and still, inexplicably, captain) at 10 with who knows what happening in the centres when Manu inevitably breaks in training or against Tonga.

Forgive me for being a bit maudlin.

Danno wrote:I don't feel like the AIs will be a great deal of fun. Most of the left field selections won't see the 23, the bench will have a Dunn or two involved and some units look incredibly callow. And we have the last 15-20mins of each game to look forward to with our Lord and Saviour (and still, inexplicably, captain) at 10 with who knows what happening in the centres when Manu inevitably breaks in training or against Tonga.

Forgive me for being a bit maudlin.

I thought this was relatively upbeat.

Mellsblue wrote:

Danno wrote:I don't feel like the AIs will be a great deal of fun. Most of the left field selections won't see the 23, the bench will have a Dunn or two involved and some units look incredibly callow. And we have the last 15-20mins of each game to look forward to with our Lord and Saviour (and still, inexplicably, captain) at 10 with who knows what happening in the centres when Manu inevitably breaks in training or against Tonga.

Forgive me for being a bit maudlin.

I thought this was relatively upbeat.

Ha! I did try to tone it down. Too much I guess.

Was it this time last go that Eddie did his trial World Cup thing, absolutely beasting the players and trying to test out all the options for injury cover?

With this talk of Davison covering both sides, Lawes at 6, Curry at 8 and a variety of 15/10/wing hybrids maybe there’s some similar thinking here?

I’m not even sure why I’m trying to make sense of this squad to be honest.

francoisfou wrote:If the rumour that Curry is being lined up for No8 has any truth, then wtf are three 8s doing in the squad? (I'm including Chick as an 8)

i really do hope that rumour proves groundless I'd pick Dombrandt, Ludlum, Simmonds, Chick and even Ewels there first, hell I'd even being back Billy or Dayglo or Deano out of retirement - for me it's almost a Bergamasco plays 9 type pick

jngf wrote:

francoisfou wrote:If the rumour that Curry is being lined up for No8 has any truth, then wtf are three 8s doing in the squad? (I'm including Chick as an 8)

i really do hope that rumour proves groundless I'd pick Dombrandt, Ludlum, Simmonds, Chick and even Ewels there first, hell I'd even being back Billy or Dayglo or Deano out of retirement - for me it's almost a Bergamasco plays 9 type pick

Apart from the fact that it's caused absolutely no problems and has actually turned out quite successfully, to the extent that he played there for the Lions in a tour match, yeah, sure, it's exactly like Bergamasco.

Puja