Squad named

[fivepointer]

Ribbans exclusion at lock has surprised me. Going for the lightweight and to my mind underpowered Isiekwe is a move i didnt see coming.
That does put the onus squarely on Itoje finding his best and Hill raising his game, though i think Chessum has a fair chance of starting given his form.
The squad still allows for any number of selectorial directions.

[badback]

Nic Shonert went off with an injury following a nasty head knock at the weekend. That probably stopped any suggestion he might make the squad.

It would depend on what's Borthwick's thoughts are, Cole is in great form and has a wealth of experience. Is there then a lot of point choosing a 30 year old journeyman that will do a solid job but probably not make the next world cup as third choice. If we're being brutally honest that's where Shonert and Balmain are. Good club men but even with a big step forward following an introduction to international level (which is no way guaranteed) they'd still be at best third choice come the world cup behind Stuart and Sinckler.

Better to invest the time in the current best of the young batch at tighthead who you'll probably need post world cup. That's Heyes at the minute though Harper at Sale is worth keeping an eye on. Sadly Street and Painter haven't really delivered for their clubs though I think Painter's issue does tend to be staying fit.

Harper looked really promising before his injury. How has been playing since his return? Schonert is probably the best scrummaging Eng qualified TH playing but he doesn’t do a great deal around the park in comparison.

Harper was back playing for Sale at the weekend. Long old shift in the end what with Schonert lasting only a few minutes. He's not a call up ready yet but post the world cup with more experience maybe.

Schonert is a solid but uninspiring option. At the time he was called up he was entering his prime years and there was hope he'd develop a more all round game that never emerged. Having a tighthead that can reliably hold his side of the scrum up isn't the worst third choice squad option.

Having a tight head who can reliably hold up his side of the scrum would be a nice first choice option too

[Banquo]

How has Itoje ‘gone backwards’ and what does ‘dominating the world game’ mean? He seems to slam 80 mins of consistent effort every time I see him.

For context, we’ve been pretty average as a team since 2019, so is Itoje the chicken, the egg or just someone who has been consistently good at all the key facets of his game. Work rate- tick. Tackle count- tick. Lineout competence- tick, taking and competing at 2 and 4. Restarts- tick. Scrum play- well, we are all just guessing. Nuisance at the breakdown- tick. Carrying- variable, as ever. Not sure what you are looking for tbh.

[Puja]

How has Itoje ‘gone backwards’ and what does ‘dominating the world game’ mean?

For context, we’ve been pretty average as a team since 2019, so is Itoje the chicken, the egg or just someone who has been consistently good at all the key facets of his game. Work rate- tick. Tackle count- tick. Lineout competence- tick, taking and competing at 2 and 4. Restarts- tick. Scrum play- well, we are all just guessing. Nuisance at the breakdown- tick. Carrying- variable, as ever. Not sure what you are looking for tbh.

Itoje was in just about every World XV in 2019. Do you honestly think his performances are such that he'd be in a World XV in 2022/23?

Puja

[Spiffy]

How has Itoje ‘gone backwards’ and what does ‘dominating the world game’ mean? He seems to slam 80 mins of consistent effort every time I see him.

For context, we’ve been pretty average as a team since 2019, so is Itoje the chicken, the egg or just someone who has been consistently good at all the key facets of his game. Work rate- tick. Tackle count- tick. Lineout competence- tick, taking and competing at 2 and 4. Restarts- tick. Scrum play- well, we are all just guessing. Nuisance at the breakdown- tick. Carrying- variable, as ever. Not sure what you are looking for tbh.

Screaming his head off - tick

[Banquo]

How has Itoje ‘gone backwards’ and what does ‘dominating the world game’ mean?

For context, we’ve been pretty average as a team since 2019, so is Itoje the chicken, the egg or just someone who has been consistently good at all the key facets of his game. Work rate- tick. Tackle count- tick. Lineout competence- tick, taking and competing at 2 and 4. Restarts- tick. Scrum play- well, we are all just guessing. Nuisance at the breakdown- tick. Carrying- variable, as ever. Not sure what you are looking for tbh.

Itoje was in just about every World XV in 2019. Do you honestly think his performances are such that he'd be in a World XV in 2022/23?

Puja

Probably, but What else are you looking for? I’ll ask again- how has he gone backwards, and what do you mean by dominating the world game’? Genuinely don’t know what you are expecting to see, especially in a largely misfiring/rebuilding team.

[Mikey Brown]

I feel like with Etzebeth being so absurdly good and England largely being crap for 3 years it’s just made his (relative) lack of highlight moments stand out. He’s still in the top handful of locks in the world isn’t he?

I wouldn’t mind trading some of the shouting for some more of those momentum-turning interventions, but I’m only really worried about who his partner is.

[Banquo]

I feel like with Etzebeth being so absurdly good and England largely being crap for 3 years it’s just made his (relative) lack of highlight moments stand out. He’s still in the top handful of locks in the world isn’t he?

Happy for him to pair with Eztebeth . Even if he isn’t ‘at his best’ he remains excellent in almost every facet of his key positional requirements imo, and I’m not even sure he isn’t- though he has had a few injuries and a lot of rugby in 7 years.

[Puja]

How has Itoje ‘gone backwards’ and what does ‘dominating the world game’ mean?

For context, we’ve been pretty average as a team since 2019, so is Itoje the chicken, the egg or just someone who has been consistently good at all the key facets of his game. Work rate- tick. Tackle count- tick. Lineout competence- tick, taking and competing at 2 and 4. Restarts- tick. Scrum play- well, we are all just guessing. Nuisance at the breakdown- tick. Carrying- variable, as ever. Not sure what you are looking for tbh.

Itoje was in just about every World XV in 2019. Do you honestly think his performances are such that he'd be in a World XV in 2022/23?

Puja

Probably, but What else are you looking for? I’ll ask again- how has he gone backwards, and what do you mean by dominating the world game’? Genuinely don’t know what you are expecting to see, especially in a largely misfiring/rebuilding team.

I'm looking for him not to consistently give away a guaranteed 1-3 avoidable penalties every game for a start. He's also not producing the blockbuster moments as often as he was - the huge tackles, the turnover frequency of a back row, the monster clearout to save our own ball.

Itoje is never going to be a bad player - he has far too much quality for that - but in 2019 he was the best lock in the world. On 2022 form, he's 3rd-7th depending on your view (Etzebeth and Woki definitely and then I think there's a bunfight that Itoje, Ryan, Mostert, De Jager, and Whitelock are all involved in (and probably some others that I forget).

Puja

[p/d]

Tough on Rowlands

[Oakboy]

How has Itoje ‘gone backwards’ and what does ‘dominating the world game’ mean? He seems to slam 80 mins of consistent effort every time I see him.

For context, we’ve been pretty average as a team since 2019, so is Itoje the chicken, the egg or just someone who has been consistently good at all the key facets of his game. Work rate- tick. Tackle count- tick. Lineout competence- tick, taking and competing at 2 and 4. Restarts- tick. Scrum play- well, we are all just guessing. Nuisance at the breakdown- tick. Carrying- variable, as ever. Not sure what you are looking for tbh.

I think ticking the facets of Itoje's game sums it up, rather. He is a very good player but he used to be outstanding. His performances used to affect the game more and the opposition were dominated regularly in lots of areas. Of late, he has not been as bad as 'going through the motions' but I don't think his heart has been in it fully - by his own high standards. Oddly, some players (e.g. Parisse) look better in struggling teams. By comparison with team-mates they just seem classier. Itoje has dropped back to very good from special. Dragged down by the overall quality of the team? Maybe, but the feisty character of three years back would not have been, IMO.

[Banquo]

How has Itoje ‘gone backwards’ and what does ‘dominating the world game’ mean? He seems to slam 80 mins of consistent effort every time I see him.

For context, we’ve been pretty average as a team since 2019, so is Itoje the chicken, the egg or just someone who has been consistently good at all the key facets of his game. Work rate- tick. Tackle count- tick. Lineout competence- tick, taking and competing at 2 and 4. Restarts- tick. Scrum play- well, we are all just guessing. Nuisance at the breakdown- tick. Carrying- variable, as ever. Not sure what you are looking for tbh.

I think ticking the facets of Itoje's game sums it up, rather. He is a very good player but he used to be outstanding. His performances used to affect the game more and the opposition were dominated regularly in lots of areas. Of late, he has not been as bad as 'going through the motions' but I don't think his heart has been in it fully - by his own high standards. Oddly, some players (e.g. Parisse) look better in struggling teams. By comparison with team-mates they just seem classier. Itoje has dropped back to very good from special. Dragged down by the overall quality of the team? Maybe, but the feisty character of three years back would not have been, IMO.

By simply being good at all those facets makes him outstanding. I don’t agree with what you are saying tbh.

[Mikey Brown]

Which of our players has consistently looked at their best? Genge? Still patchy? Steward maybe? Let’s just blame it all on the chazwozzer and see if Stevie B can do better.

I’d be very interested if Itoje comes in to the leadership equation, maybe post Farrell/Lawes, as he seemed a natural candidate when he was breaking through. I wonder how that would gel with his current shouty demeanour.

[Banquo]

Itoje was in just about every World XV in 2019. Do you honestly think his performances are such that he'd be in a World XV in 2022/23?

Puja

Probably, but What else are you looking for? I’ll ask again- how has he gone backwards, and what do you mean by dominating the world game’? Genuinely don’t know what you are expecting to see, especially in a largely misfiring/rebuilding team.

I'm looking for him not to consistently give away a guaranteed 1-3 avoidable penalties every game for a start. He's also not producing the blockbuster moments as often as he was - the huge tackles, the turnover frequency of a back row, the monster clearout to save our own ball.

Itoje is never going to be a bad player - he has far too much quality for that - but in 2019 he was the best lock in the world. On 2022 form, he's 3rd-7th depending on your view (Etzebeth and Woki definitely and then I think there's a bunfight that Itoje, Ryan, Mostert, De Jager, and Whitelock are all involved in (and probably some others that I forget).

Puja

If anything he gives away less pens I’d guess, but if you want turnovers you will get pens the way refs currently do it.
So he might be third, you give it to Woki who is a hybrid 6 and lock. I think he’s a less effective all round player than Itoje, but very different. The others are very good, even if mostert is mainly bench or starting at 6, but Itoje is certainly in their peer group as you say.

I’m also fascinated by your dominating the world game comment. Again, what does that mean or look like?

You’ve taken no account of Englands play or that Itoje has been stuck at 6 a fair bit in 2022 for us.
Just think that rumours of Itojes death are somewhat exaggerated.

[p/d]

Everyone looks better in an organised winning side, Itoje is no different. We have been so disjointed for what seems a painfully long time that I’m impressed when we manage to complete a line out without closing the gap, let alone Itoje single handedly changing the outcome.

God I don’t like Farrell as captain (nothing to do with the above)

[Puja]

Probably, but What else are you looking for? I’ll ask again- how has he gone backwards, and what do you mean by dominating the world game’? Genuinely don’t know what you are expecting to see, especially in a largely misfiring/rebuilding team.

I'm looking for him not to consistently give away a guaranteed 1-3 avoidable penalties every game for a start. He's also not producing the blockbuster moments as often as he was - the huge tackles, the turnover frequency of a back row, the monster clearout to save our own ball.

Itoje is never going to be a bad player - he has far too much quality for that - but in 2019 he was the best lock in the world. On 2022 form, he's 3rd-7th depending on your view (Etzebeth and Woki definitely and then I think there's a bunfight that Itoje, Ryan, Mostert, De Jager, and Whitelock are all involved in (and probably some others that I forget).

Puja

If anything he gives away less pens I’d guess, but if you want turnovers you will get pens the way refs currently do it.
So he might be third, you give it to Woki who is a hybrid 6 and lock. I think he’s a less effective all round player than Itoje, but very different. The others are very good, even if mostert is mainly bench or starting at 6, but Itoje is certainly in their peer group as you say.

I’m also fascinated by your dominating the world game comment. Again, what does that mean or look like?

You’ve taken no account of Englands play or that Itoje has been stuck at 6 a fair bit in 2022 for us.
Just think that rumours of Itojes death are somewhat exaggerated.

Well, yeah. No-one's claiming the demise of Itoje as a very good player (and Iam taking into account England's play, although I am choosing to repress the few games Itoje played at 6 for my own mental health).

I'm fascinated by your fascination with a fairly straightforward turn of phrase. Itoje was the best lock in the world in 2019 at 24. I was expecting him to kick on from there, continue developing and improving, become one of the all-time greats of English rugby - I thought he had that potential. He hasn't done that - he is not playing as well as he was in 2019, let alone having improved.

It's possible that I misjudged his potential. Hopefully not. Hopefully it is playing in a misfiring team and he will go from strength to strength under the new regime.

Puja

[Danno]

As above, it's not as if he is suddenly a bad player (indeed, he must still be inked in for the 15 slightly behind O.Farrell), but he's stood still *at best*. Personally, I think he's recently been a bit of a penalty machine that ought to get marched 10 occasionally - or whatever else gives him a bit of a kick - to both stop shouting and start playing intelligently again

[Oakboy]

How has Itoje ‘gone backwards’ and what does ‘dominating the world game’ mean? He seems to slam 80 mins of consistent effort every time I see him.

For context, we’ve been pretty average as a team since 2019, so is Itoje the chicken, the egg or just someone who has been consistently good at all the key facets of his game. Work rate- tick. Tackle count- tick. Lineout competence- tick, taking and competing at 2 and 4. Restarts- tick. Scrum play- well, we are all just guessing. Nuisance at the breakdown- tick. Carrying- variable, as ever. Not sure what you are looking for tbh.

I think ticking the facets of Itoje's game sums it up, rather. He is a very good player but he used to be outstanding. His performances used to affect the game more and the opposition were dominated regularly in lots of areas. Of late, he has not been as bad as 'going through the motions' but I don't think his heart has been in it fully - by his own high standards. Oddly, some players (e.g. Parisse) look better in struggling teams. By comparison with team-mates they just seem classier. Itoje has dropped back to very good from special. Dragged down by the overall quality of the team? Maybe, but the feisty character of three years back would not have been, IMO.

By simply being good at all those facets makes him outstanding. I don’t agree with what you are saying tbh.

Ah, you are probably right as usual but I can only comment on what I believe I see. Having said that, if Itoje is back to his former glory with the new regime will it be him improving or the others? I just can't help thinking that he has an extra 15% above his average for the last three years, maybe more if the team/squad spirit improves and if he is trusted with the captaincy at some point.

[Mikey Brown]

Can we go back to Simmonds as a linkman please?

[p/d]

I had settled on that going by unnoticed

[Mellsblue]

Cannot wait for 12. Simmonds 13. Earl.
I’m guessing the transition to 6. Nowell 7. May will come in the warmup matches hence their omission.

[SDHoneymonster]

Also not averse to a conversion to 12 for Barbeary (incidentally, now he's probably out of the picture for the 2023 WC, wonder if Borthwick might talk him into going back to the front row? With George getting on and LCD off to France we're starting to look light at hooker post-tourney whereas we've got as good a clutch of back rowers as we've ever had, that's now likelier his quickest route into the team).

[Mikey Brown]

Yep, as long as he’s got a 2 on his back somewhere. Who cares if it’s backs or forwards.

I genuinely do wish Simmonds had stayed in the centres as well.

[fivepointer]

When was the last time Barbeary played hooker? in theory it sounds a good idea to play him there given our strengths elsewhere but it may not be that straightforward. Does he want to play there for starters?
I do think Blamire is a WC possible and certainly should be in the mix post the event.
Had hoped Sam Riley would come through at Quins but so far he's not making an impression.

[SDHoneymonster]

Yes, Blamire is evidence that Eddie did at least some of the time know what he was talking about IMO.