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Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:28 pm
by Banquo
Timbo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:26 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:10 pm
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:52 pm
I’d bench Itoje. I think he needs a kick up the arse to be frank. He was pretty crap by his standards yesterday really. Totally outplayed by Chessum. Looking at the game anyone who didn’t know would’ve said Chessum was the one with world class potential, not Itoje.
I wouldnt- his crap is better than mosts good, and we have too few quality intls to deliberately lose one. Plus as good as Chessum was, having experienced quality alongside has to helpful. Not who'd start ahead of him anyway to match his skills?
All that said, for a bright lad, he can do very dim stuff.
What if Big Courts was fit?
little Courts hasnt played second row in a few years now.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:31 pm
by Banquo
italy gifting this to france,,Varney having a mare
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:31 pm
by Which Tyler
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:26 pm
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:14 pm
I'd be tempted to drop Itoje for a match or two.
About like Billy 4 years ago - he's playing poorly by his standards, but is still the best option for the shirt.
A kick up the arse now could see much better performances in the Autumn.
I'm not sure If risk it, but I'd definitely be tempted.
well a- who would one start in his place, and b- in discussions about who to drop, Itoje wouldnt be near the top of my list.
Looking at Italy now, our backs defence needs to be somewhat better!!
A Ribbans
B Agreed, to which I'd add my previous point about only bringing in JWillis and Watson at this point
Either way, my temptation isn't about improving the team for the 1-2 matches that Itoje is dropped, it's about giving one of the world's best players a reality check and attitude improvement.
Even without looking at Italy now, our backs defence needs a significant improvement on yesterday
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:38 pm
by Banquo
Italy looking tricksy in attack.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:41 pm
by Timbo
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:28 pm
Timbo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:26 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:10 pm
I wouldnt- his crap is better than mosts good, and we have too few quality intls to deliberately lose one. Plus as good as Chessum was, having experienced quality alongside has to helpful. Not who'd start ahead of him anyway to match his skills?
All that said, for a bright lad, he can do very dim stuff.
What if Big Courts was fit?
little Courts hasnt played second row in a few years now.
Reported in the Telegraph prior to his last injury that new coaching team view him as primarily a second row in their team.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:48 pm
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:31 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:26 pm
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:14 pm
I'd be tempted to drop Itoje for a match or two.
About like Billy 4 years ago - he's playing poorly by his standards, but is still the best option for the shirt.
A kick up the arse now could see much better performances in the Autumn.
I'm not sure If risk it, but I'd definitely be tempted.
well a- who would one start in his place, and b- in discussions about who to drop, Itoje wouldnt be near the top of my list.
Looking at Italy now, our backs defence needs to be somewhat better!!
A Ribbans
B Agreed, to which I'd add my previous point about only bringing in JWillis and Watson at this point
Either way, my temptation isn't about improving the team for the 1-2 matches that Itoje is dropped, it's about giving one of the world's best players a reality check and attitude improvement.
Even without looking at Italy now, our backs defence needs a significant improvement on yesterday
so two tight head locks with a total of about 5 caps?. ok....
Personally no idea how one of our best and generally world class players would respond to a `kick up the ar5e'... may work, may not, but even then a team that needs quality, to some extent results to aid development, and a degree of continuity would be imo unnecessarily disrupted......
I'd be less inclined to publicly rebuke than to tell him what I want to see and give him a game or two to do so- assuming borthers is unhappy- given that was his first matchfor the new team.
esp when other areas need a big work on. Also- no change in midfield for you?
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:49 pm
by francoisfou
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:38 pm
Italy looking tricksy in attack.
14/15 phases result in a penalty. A side to be reckoned with.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:50 pm
by Banquo
Timbo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:41 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:28 pm
Timbo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:26 pm
What if Big Courts was fit?
little Courts hasnt played second row in a few years now.
Reported in the Telegraph prior to his last injury that new coaching team view him as primarily a second row in their team.
he needs to reverse that weight loss and how his club see him then. I liked him at second row when he was there tho.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:51 pm
by Banquo
francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:49 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:38 pm
Italy looking tricksy in attack.
14/15 phases result in a penalty. A side to be reckoned with.
Their attacking is great to watch- thoughtful and clever.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:56 pm
by Mellsblue
Really hoping Borthwick, Sinfield etc can think of ways to improve Itoje’s performance, albeit I think he’s playing well just without the odd highlight reel moments he used to produce, other than dropping him.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:58 pm
by Which Tyler
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:48 pm
esp when other areas need a big work on. Also- no change in midfield for you?
As explained in my post about changes I would actually make - rather than a temptation in isolation, for a change I wouldn't make.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:13 pm
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:58 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:48 pm
esp when other areas need a big work on. Also- no change in midfield for you?
As explained in my post about changes I would actually make - rather than a temptation in isolation, for a change I wouldn't make.
ok, just reread it er in full, so you'd likely bin Ben C and OHC, for better players, and trust we can eliminate the obvious bad areas through work ons as limited selectorial alternatives. Im not confident....
in terms of those work ons.....we missed 20% of tackles (mind Duhans try was a chunk of that). And in fairness to Itoje and George they made 12 and 10 with none missed respectively, a big %age of the front 5's efforts.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:16 pm
by Banquo
...Italy are quite the handful. Hanging in with France despite giving france 2 tries.
also demonstrating why 9's ought to box kick in defence rather than pass 15 yards back. Despite Varney, Italy lead!! Hooker is fantastic.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:30 pm
by Which Tyler
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:13 pmok, just reread it er in full, so you'd likely bin Ben C and OHC, for better players, and
trust we can eliminate the obvious bad areas through work ons as limited selectorial alternatives. Im not confident....
More like "hope", whilst not wanting to further unsettle what's already a very unsettled team, and not wanting to scape-goat after one performance.
Of course, if there's an injury returned available for next week, then that also opens up discussion (for me).
I've also said that I need to reassess BCurry with a rewatch - which may well make me reassess which if the wings makes way for Watson (who's an upgrade on either)
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:34 pm
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:30 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:13 pmok, just reread it er in full, so you'd likely bin Ben C and OHC, for better players, and
trust we can eliminate the obvious bad areas through work ons as limited selectorial alternatives. Im not confident....
More like "hope", whilst not wanting to further unsettle what's already a very unsettled team, and not wanting to scape-goat after one performance.
Of course, if there's an injury returned available for next week, then that also opens up discussion (for me).
I've also said that I need to reassess BCurry with a rewatch - which may well make me reassess which if the wings makes way for Watson (who's an upgrade on either)
midfield is not scapegoating after one game...its a (non) running sore both sides of the ball. Been interesting had kelly been fit for scotland tho....options v limited I accept.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:46 pm
by Which Tyler
It's a matter of perspective.
For me, that was the first performance of a new team, assembled under a new coach, playing to a new game plan.
Farrell (and Youngs, and Mako) have been runnings sores for years nowand individually, I'd be happy to see the back of all of them.
However, we are where we are, and dropping anyone for someone who was deemed not good enough for yesterday, is scapegoating - to my mind.
Dropping anyone for someone who was their bench replacement yesterday, is more of a minor shuffle.
Dropping anyone for someone who was (considered) unavailable yesterday, is more of a shirt-warmer being replaced by a better option.
One match in, and I'm looking for communication and trust to improve as things bed in - gaps between 10 12 and 13, for instance, I would trust to improve naturally with time together. Things like Dombrandt playing as if he's wearing woollen mittens - I write off as a bad day at the office for now, and I would trust to improve.
Whether these things will improve enough, quickly enough... that's where hope comes in.
Oh and mine is not remotely the perspective that matters - but it's the only one I can validly provide.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:51 pm
by francoisfou
On the evidence of this afternoon, France are going to be on the end if a heavy defeat next Saturday in Dublin. Hats off Italy, a magnificent and gutsy performance.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:56 pm
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:46 pm
It's a matter of perspective.
For me, that was the first performance of a new team, assembled under a new coach, playing to a new game plan.
Farrell (and Youngs, and Mako) have been runnings sores for years nowand individually, I'd be happy to see the back of all of them.
However, we are where we are, and dropping anyone for someone who was deemed not good enough for yesterday, is scapegoating - to my mind.
Dropping anyone for someone who was their bench replacement yesterday, is more of a minor shuffle.
Dropping anyone for someone who was (considered) unavailable yesterday, is more of a shirt-warmer being replaced by a better option.
One match in, and I'm looking for communication and trust to improve as things bed in - gaps between 10 12 and 13, for instance, I would trust to improve naturally with time together. Things like Dombrandt playing as if he's wearing woollen mittens - I write off as a bad day at the office for now, and I would trust to improve.
Whether these things will improve enough, quickly enough... that's where hope comes in.
Oh and mine is not remotely the perspective that matters - but it's the only one I can validly provide.
Ditto and like mine it matters not a jot -I don’t altogether agree though
. The Smith/Faz axis has been around long enough to be at least heavily questioned both sides of the ball. I’d also say that other issues were not new at all.
But in my previous early post I did say I’d on balance stick with most of what we have, mostly because of no compelling alternatives bar a couple of injuries.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:10 pm
by stepsider
England around even money (10/11 in fact) with Bet365 to beat Italy by 20 next week.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:14 pm
by fivepointer
I'd be surprised if we beat Italy by 20 points. They looked very good today, giving France quite a game.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:15 pm
by stepsider
Seems a large margin, but the bookies don't often get it far wrong.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:33 pm
by stepsider
More odds: England 1/20 (i.e. 95% likely) to win, with Italy at 8/1 (i.e. an 11% chance) to triumph
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:33 pm
by Banquo
fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:14 pm
I'd be surprised if we beat Italy by 20 points. They looked very good today, giving France quite a game.
Frankly, they gifted France two tries and Varney was more like Reg than a 9. Dangerous game for us- and their scrum gave France some pause for thought.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:37 pm
by Oakboy
Ludlam was excellent, Curry OK and Dombrandt mixed as an overall generalisation of opinions I've read. I don't disagree but I queried our back row's capacity to match the Scottish one before the game and I have reservations about it still. I don't think Earl would improve it. Simmonds might.
I think it will be a big part of SB's thoughts for Italy, along with the lineout. The latter can not really be improved by changing hooker or second row unless SB risks a raw hooker and leaves Itoje out.
I assume that he will revert to his original selection choices in the backs as soon as he can.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:54 pm
by Timbo
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:50 pm
Timbo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:41 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:28 pm
little Courts hasnt played second row in a few years now.
Reported in the Telegraph prior to his last injury that new coaching team view him as primarily a second row in their team.
he needs to reverse that weight loss and how his club see him then. I liked him at second row when he was there tho.
Not sure about the weight loss, this is the first I’ve heard of it. Our tight game- scrum & maul- was pretty beastly in the Ireland game last year when he moved forward after Ewels was s/o. Can’t imagine that he needs to be playing in the row for Saints to play there for England. Some players yes, Lawes not so much.
Fwiw I wouldn’t bring him in for Itoje, but he’ll be a motivating presence for the starters when he’s fit again.