New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Tom Moore]

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Think Cipriani has an entirely different career without the ankle injury. Sinbad was made of wet cardboard and had injury luck that suggests he broke a mirror with a black cat.

Is "Cips shot himself in the foot" intended to be ironic? Agree that without 'that' injury his progression would have been very different.

Also agree that Robinson was a real talent, JSB was seriously unlucky. But there are a few question marks over the specific abilities of Healey and Catt (both utility types). Balshaw imploded post-2001 Lions, Tony Underwood was never the same after being Lomu-ed.

Agree to an extent on Healey and Catt, but I thought Woodwards England never looked more fluent that when they had Healey (or, for about 2 games in the 2002 AIs, JSD) in the team as a ball-playing winger with the facility to come off their wing and stand in effectively at first receiver. Catt never seemed to be the best available player for his position after being Lomu'd, but was frequently the correct cog for the wheel.

[Oakboy]

He's a better winger and future bet than many on that list. Thorley has also looked in good nick following his return.

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

If I was picking an all-time English back row I'd have Croft and Hill as the flankers. I suspect I'd be the only one advocating Croft. In debate about most of these individuals, first on the criticism list is always what a player cannot do rather than emphasis on what he can.

[Scrumhead]

That first squad could be very interesting. Looking forward to seeing Seb Atkinson in it.

Opportunity for VRR as well.


Looking at the current EPS from the 6N, that first week will be without: George, Cole, MakoV, Heyes, Rodd, Itoje, Hill, Isiekwe, Chessum, Ribbans, Lawes, Ludlam, Earl, JWillis, BCurry, Youngs, JVP, Mitchell, Farrell, FSmith, Daly, Manu, Kelly, Watson, Malins, Steward and Freeman. 27 of the 36 unavailable through club commitments or injury, and most of the players who are next cab off the rank are either from those 4 clubs or in France and thus out of commission (plus TCurry, Martin, Ford, Dingwall, Porter unavailable as 5 from the 8 injury replacements made during the 6N).

I would be interested in Borthwick taking a look at the following as replacements for the above:
Blamire
Stuart
VRR
Who the hell even knows at this point? Do we have another tighthead? I guess Collier, if we must.
Obano
Ewels
Robinson
404FurtherLocksNotFound
Underhill if we can trust him not to bang his head
Pearson
Kenningham
Barbeary if he's fit, I guess
Randall
Spencer?
Care
Bailey?
JSimmonds? I guess? This is really hard!
May
SAtkinson
WJoseph?
JCokanasiga
Lynagh
Radwan


That was so hard to do, although I'm sure I've missed some fairly obvious names.

Puja

I like this list. TBH, there aren’t many I can think of who haven’t been mentioned.

I like Fitz Harding at Bristol. I don’t think he’s realistically likely to leapfrog those above him, but I wouldn’t be totally surprised if he was one of the 70.

Seb Blake could be a long shot as a hooker? I thought he looked individually good even when Gloucester had a dip in form. Seems like a decent nuts and bolts type of hooker.

If it’s true that no-one in the Barbarians/World XV are in contention for the 70, I’m surprised that neither Dolly or West are in the frame. Radwan is a bit disappointing, but not totally surprising.

[Banquo]

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Think Cipriani has an entirely different career without the ankle injury. Sinbad was made of wet cardboard and had injury luck that suggests he broke a mirror with a black cat.

Maybe/probably. but iirc he'd had 'issues' before the injury. JSD was plain unlucky, but one of the best players I've seen with less than 20 caps.

[Banquo]

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

If I was picking an all-time English back row I'd have Croft and Hill as the flankers. I suspect I'd be the only one advocating Croft. In debate about most of these individuals, first on the criticism list is always what a player cannot do rather than emphasis on what he can.

Croft was fantastic, and I was going to refer to him.....but tbh, when he was fit, he did get selected as first choice mostly.

[Banquo]

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Think Cipriani has an entirely different career without the ankle injury. Sinbad was made of wet cardboard and had injury luck that suggests he broke a mirror with a black cat.

Is "Cips shot himself in the foot" intended to be ironic? Agree that without 'that' injury his progression would have been very different.

Also agree that Robinson was a real talent, JSB was seriously unlucky. But there are a few question marks over the specific abilities of Healey and Catt (both utility types). Balshaw imploded post-2001 Lions, Tony Underwood was never the same after being Lomu-ed.

No, no irony at all- the injury didn't help, but who knows what might have happened if he hadn't also been a bit self destructive.

The point on the others were that they were all hugely talented, maverick types, who either got a lot of caps (Healey/Catt...and both superb; Catt was a very classy centre, and Healey a very classy wing). Balshaw faded post injury 2001, but again a massive talent who was first choice when fit generally. Tony Underwood v Lomu was 95, and he won a fair few caps post that, including as a lion- he retired to concentrate on being a commercial pilot IIRC. My point was that we have actually picked a lot of talented and maverick type backs, and others like JSD would have had more but for injury.

[Scrumhead]

Yep. I think that it’s a bit of a false narrative that’s apparently ‘proven’ by some debatably overlooked mavericks like Wade or Radwan.

I like Radwan a lot, but I also understand why he isn’t quite making the cut.

[Mr Mwenda]

Yes, just a lazy cliche that also goes with the idea that all England need is to pick X player and all will be right

[stepsider]

Yep. I think that it’s a bit of a false narrative that’s apparently ‘proven’ by some debatably overlooked mavericks like Wade or Radwan.

I like Radwan a lot, but I also understand why he isn’t quite making the cut.

Trouble is that we never gave Wade a chance (too small? - though England eventually overcame that prejudice with Neil Back) and haven't given Radwan a fair go, instead we've picked slower but apparently more dependable alternatives.

Others on this bored or, more importantly, in the England selection loop, may want that. For the oft-stated reason that wingers don't get many chances in international rugby, they've got to be able to kick/chase/tackle in the main etc etc.

I would have preferred to see Wade given a decent run of games. Ditto Radwan. Just my opinion, mind.

[p/d]

Jon Clarke. Completely overlooked

[Scrumhead]

Yep. I think that it’s a bit of a false narrative that’s apparently ‘proven’ by some debatably overlooked mavericks like Wade or Radwan.

I like Radwan a lot, but I also understand why he isn’t quite making the cut.

Trouble is that we never gave Wade a chance (too small? - though England eventually overcame that prejudice with Neil Back) and haven't given Radwan a fair go, instead we've picked slower but apparently more dependable alternatives.

Others on this bored or, more importantly, in the England selection loop, may want that. For the oft-stated reason that wingers don't get many chances in international rugby, they've got to be able to kick/chase/tackle in the main etc etc.

I would have preferred to see Wade given a decent run of games. Ditto Radwan. Just my opinion, mind.

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

[stepsider]

Yep. I think that it’s a bit of a false narrative that’s apparently ‘proven’ by some debatably overlooked mavericks like Wade or Radwan.

I like Radwan a lot, but I also understand why he isn’t quite making the cut.

Trouble is that we never gave Wade a chance (too small? - though England eventually overcame that prejudice with Neil Back) and haven't given Radwan a fair go, instead we've picked slower but apparently more dependable alternatives.

Others on this bored or, more importantly, in the England selection loop, may want that. For the oft-stated reason that wingers don't get many chances in international rugby, they've got to be able to kick/chase/tackle in the main etc etc.

I would have preferred to see Wade given a decent run of games. Ditto Radwan. Just my opinion, mind.

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

[Puja]

Trouble is that we never gave Wade a chance (too small? - though England eventually overcame that prejudice with Neil Back) and haven't given Radwan a fair go, instead we've picked slower but apparently more dependable alternatives.

Others on this bored or, more importantly, in the England selection loop, may want that. For the oft-stated reason that wingers don't get many chances in international rugby, they've got to be able to kick/chase/tackle in the main etc etc.

I would have preferred to see Wade given a decent run of games. Ditto Radwan. Just my opinion, mind.

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

Indeed, they were being kept out of the final 6N games for notoriously boring selections like Watson and Arundell.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I still don’t get the Arundell thing to be honest. He’s an incredible prospect, but having him learn how to play a new position whilst being introduced to international rugby as a teenager just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Yes he’s had some fantastic touches but I don’t see how it makes any more sense than picking Radwan or another ‘hail Mary’ option. He simply doesn’t deserve the shirt, it’s a gamble in the hopes it will make up for deficiencies elsewhere.

Watson has his spot seen up and I want to see Murley/Freeman fight it out for the 11 shirt.

[stepsider]

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

Indeed, they were being kept out of the final 6N games for notoriously boring selections like Watson and Arundell.

Puja

Needlessly sarky.

How many passes did OHC get before being dropped (yes I know he got injured, but wasn't picked again)?

Meanwhile the relatively slow Malins got games whereas the likes of the more dynamic Freeman and Murley didn't.

[Puja]

I still don’t get the Arundell thing to be honest. He’s an incredible prospect, but having him learn how to play a new position whilst being introduced to international rugby as a teenager just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Yes he’s had some fantastic touches but I don’t see how it makes any more sense than picking Radwan or another ‘hail Mary’ option. He simply doesn’t deserve the shirt, it’s a gamble in the hopes it will make up for deficiencies elsewhere.

Watson has his spot seen up and I want to see Murley/Freeman fight it out for the 11 shirt.

Yeah, that's absolutely bang on.

Needlessly sarky.

It's a brand.

Puja

[FKAS]

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

Indeed, they were being kept out of the final 6N games for notoriously boring selections like Watson and Arundell.

Puja

Needlessly sarky.

How many passes did OHC get before being dropped (yes I know he got injured, but wasn't picked again)?

Meanwhile the relatively slow Malins got games whereas the likes of the more dynamic Freeman and Murley didn't.

Whilst I'm not really a Malins fan there's more to wing play than pure speed. Not sure why we persisted with him though as we didn't play to his strengths, we could have used him as a secondary playmaker and gone with two running centres. Could have been fun to watch whilst remaining solid in the tactical battle. Malins has scored quite a lot for Sarries and looked pretty dynamic playing for Bristol.

[stepsider]

I still don’t get the Arundell thing to be honest. He’s an incredible prospect, but having him learn how to play a new position whilst being introduced to international rugby as a teenager just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Yes he’s had some fantastic touches but I don’t see how it makes any more sense than picking Radwan or another ‘hail Mary’ option. He simply doesn’t deserve the shirt, it’s a gamble in the hopes it will make up for deficiencies elsewhere.

Watson has his spot seen up and I want to see Murley/Freeman fight it out for the 11 shirt.

Yeah, that's absolutely bang on.

Needlessly sarky.

It's a brand.

Puja

Fair enough.


Wasn't Malins originally supposed to be replacing Daly at full back but Steward's justifiably secured that. There must be another way to use his great footwork and distribution skills. Outside centre a la Slade/Lozowski?

[Oakboy]

I did not see the European final (driving up to Scotland) so cannot comment on decisions in the match. However, can someone explain how Peyper is considered a good enough ref to get that marquee event? His appointment just seems ridiculous while top European refs watch from their armchairs, as do some pretty decent SH chaps.

[Banquo]

I still don’t get the Arundell thing to be honest. He’s an incredible prospect, but having him learn how to play a new position whilst being introduced to international rugby as a teenager just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Yes he’s had some fantastic touches but I don’t see how it makes any more sense than picking Radwan or another ‘hail Mary’ option. He simply doesn’t deserve the shirt, it’s a gamble in the hopes it will make up for deficiencies elsewhere.

Watson has his spot seen up and I want to see Murley/Freeman fight it out for the 11 shirt.

Yeah, that's absolutely bang on.

Needlessly sarky.

It's a brand.

Puja

Fair enough.


Wasn't Malins originally supposed to be replacing Daly at full back but Steward's justifiably secured that. There must be another way to use his great footwork and distribution skills. Outside centre a la Slade/Lozowski?

Could be radical and play him in his original position of 10

He's not a very good intl back three player imo. Looks good at club level like a lot of players.

[Banquo]

Trouble is that we never gave Wade a chance (too small? - though England eventually overcame that prejudice with Neil Back) and haven't given Radwan a fair go, instead we've picked slower but apparently more dependable alternatives.

Others on this bored or, more importantly, in the England selection loop, may want that. For the oft-stated reason that wingers don't get many chances in international rugby, they've got to be able to kick/chase/tackle in the main etc etc.

I would have preferred to see Wade given a decent run of games. Ditto Radwan. Just my opinion, mind.

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

OHC has played and imo struggled (albeit in a poor team), Freeman was outstanding in Oz (and mysterious why Splendid Braveman hasn't seen fit to stick him in a match day squad yet -iirc), Murley has been in lots of squads. TBH I don't think our presenting issue is not selecting or embracing talented and quick wingers.

[Skalyba]

Indeed, they were being kept out of the final 6N games for notoriously boring selections like Watson and Arundell.

Puja

Needlessly sarky.

How many passes did OHC get before being dropped (yes I know he got injured, but wasn't picked again)?

Meanwhile the relatively slow Malins got games whereas the likes of the more dynamic Freeman and Murley didn't.

Whilst I'm not really a Malins fan there's more to wing play than pure speed. Not sure why we persisted with him though as we didn't play to his strengths, we could have used him as a secondary playmaker and gone with two running centres. Could have been fun to watch whilst remaining solid in the tactical battle. Malins has scored quite a lot for Sarries and looked pretty dynamic playing for Bristol.

I'm convinced Malins only played because Daly was injured -= SB and his team identified that Farrell is important to the side but needs a playmaker a la Goode/Daly, Mailns on the wing was the best fit. Though I agree he wasn't used as well as he could have been, he was still one of the few players who managed to create half chances in the 6N

[p/d]

Arundell will be to this generation what Jason Robinson was to the class of 2003

[stepsider]

Here's hoping!

[stepsider]

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

OHC has played and imo struggled (albeit in a poor team), Freeman was outstanding in Oz (and mysterious why Splendid Braveman hasn't seen fit to stick him in a match day squad yet -iirc), Murley has been in lots of squads. TBH I don't think our presenting issue is not selecting or embracing talented and quick wingers.

Sorting the pack is def. the priority. But I'd also like to see wingers with the most potential being picked. IMHO that hasn't been happening.