RugbyRebels

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:29 pm

Tom Moore wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:04 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:43 pm
Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Think Cipriani has an entirely different career without the ankle injury. Sinbad was made of wet cardboard and had injury luck that suggests he broke a mirror with a black cat.

Is "Cips shot himself in the foot" intended to be ironic? Agree that without 'that' injury his progression would have been very different.

Also agree that Robinson was a real talent, JSB was seriously unlucky. But there are a few question marks over the specific abilities of Healey and Catt (both utility types). Balshaw imploded post-2001 Lions, Tony Underwood was never the same after being Lomu-ed.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:43 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 2:52 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 12:16 pm

He's a better winger and future bet than many on that list. Thorley has also looked in good nick following his return.

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Puja wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 9:39 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:31 am That first squad could be very interesting. Looking forward to seeing Seb Atkinson in it.

Opportunity for VRR as well.


Looking at the current EPS from the 6N, that first week will be without: George, Cole, MakoV, Heyes, Rodd, Itoje, Hill, Isiekwe, Chessum, Ribbans, Lawes, Ludlam, Earl, JWillis, BCurry, Youngs, JVP, Mitchell, Farrell, FSmith, Daly, Manu, Kelly, Watson, Malins, Steward and Freeman. 27 of the 36 unavailable through club commitments or injury, and most of the players who are next cab off the rank are either from those 4 clubs or in France and thus out of commission (plus TCurry, Martin, Ford, Dingwall, Porter unavailable as 5 from the 8 injury replacements made during the 6N).

I would be interested in Borthwick taking a look at the following as replacements for the above:
Blamire
Stuart
VRR
Who the hell even knows at this point? Do we have another tighthead? I guess Collier, if we must.
Obano
Ewels
Robinson
404FurtherLocksNotFound
Underhill if we can trust him not to bang his head
Pearson
Kenningham
Barbeary if he's fit, I guess
Randall
Spencer?
Care
Bailey?
JSimmonds? I guess? This is really hard!
May
SAtkinson
WJoseph?
JCokanasiga
Lynagh
Radwan


That was so hard to do, although I'm sure I've missed some fairly obvious names.

Puja

Tom Moore wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:04 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:43 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 2:52 pm

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Think Cipriani has an entirely different career without the ankle injury. Sinbad was made of wet cardboard and had injury luck that suggests he broke a mirror with a black cat.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:55 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:43 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 2:52 pm

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

If I was picking an all-time English back row I'd have Croft and Hill as the flankers. I suspect I'd be the only one advocating Croft. In debate about most of these individuals, first on the criticism list is always what a player cannot do rather than emphasis on what he can.

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:29 pm

Tom Moore wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:04 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:43 pm
Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Think Cipriani has an entirely different career without the ankle injury. Sinbad was made of wet cardboard and had injury luck that suggests he broke a mirror with a black cat.

Is "Cips shot himself in the foot" intended to be ironic? Agree that without 'that' injury his progression would have been very different.

Also agree that Robinson was a real talent, JSB was seriously unlucky. But there are a few question marks over the specific abilities of Healey and Catt (both utility types). Balshaw imploded post-2001 Lions, Tony Underwood was never the same after being Lomu-ed.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 11:35 am Yep. I think that it’s a bit of a false narrative that’s apparently ‘proven’ by some debatably overlooked mavericks like Wade or Radwan.

I like Radwan a lot, but I also understand why he isn’t quite making the cut.

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 5:51 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 11:35 am Yep. I think that it’s a bit of a false narrative that’s apparently ‘proven’ by some debatably overlooked mavericks like Wade or Radwan.

I like Radwan a lot, but I also understand why he isn’t quite making the cut.

Trouble is that we never gave Wade a chance (too small? - though England eventually overcame that prejudice with Neil Back) and haven't given Radwan a fair go, instead we've picked slower but apparently more dependable alternatives.

Others on this bored or, more importantly, in the England selection loop, may want that. For the oft-stated reason that wingers don't get many chances in international rugby, they've got to be able to kick/chase/tackle in the main etc etc.

I would have preferred to see Wade given a decent run of games. Ditto Radwan. Just my opinion, mind.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:24 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 5:51 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 11:35 am Yep. I think that it’s a bit of a false narrative that’s apparently ‘proven’ by some debatably overlooked mavericks like Wade or Radwan.

I like Radwan a lot, but I also understand why he isn’t quite making the cut.

Trouble is that we never gave Wade a chance (too small? - though England eventually overcame that prejudice with Neil Back) and haven't given Radwan a fair go, instead we've picked slower but apparently more dependable alternatives.

Others on this bored or, more importantly, in the England selection loop, may want that. For the oft-stated reason that wingers don't get many chances in international rugby, they've got to be able to kick/chase/tackle in the main etc etc.

I would have preferred to see Wade given a decent run of games. Ditto Radwan. Just my opinion, mind.

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:28 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:24 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 5:51 pm

Trouble is that we never gave Wade a chance (too small? - though England eventually overcame that prejudice with Neil Back) and haven't given Radwan a fair go, instead we've picked slower but apparently more dependable alternatives.

Others on this bored or, more importantly, in the England selection loop, may want that. For the oft-stated reason that wingers don't get many chances in international rugby, they've got to be able to kick/chase/tackle in the main etc etc.

I would have preferred to see Wade given a decent run of games. Ditto Radwan. Just my opinion, mind.

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

Puja wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:51 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:28 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:24 pm

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

Indeed, they were being kept out of the final 6N games for notoriously boring selections like Watson and Arundell.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 8:33 pm I still don’t get the Arundell thing to be honest. He’s an incredible prospect, but having him learn how to play a new position whilst being introduced to international rugby as a teenager just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Yes he’s had some fantastic touches but I don’t see how it makes any more sense than picking Radwan or another ‘hail Mary’ option. He simply doesn’t deserve the shirt, it’s a gamble in the hopes it will make up for deficiencies elsewhere.

Watson has his spot seen up and I want to see Murley/Freeman fight it out for the 11 shirt.

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 9:02 pmNeedlessly sarky.

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 9:02 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:51 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:28 pm

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

Indeed, they were being kept out of the final 6N games for notoriously boring selections like Watson and Arundell.

Puja

Needlessly sarky.

How many passes did OHC get before being dropped (yes I know he got injured, but wasn't picked again)?

Meanwhile the relatively slow Malins got games whereas the likes of the more dynamic Freeman and Murley didn't.

Puja wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 9:15 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 8:33 pm I still don’t get the Arundell thing to be honest. He’s an incredible prospect, but having him learn how to play a new position whilst being introduced to international rugby as a teenager just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Yes he’s had some fantastic touches but I don’t see how it makes any more sense than picking Radwan or another ‘hail Mary’ option. He simply doesn’t deserve the shirt, it’s a gamble in the hopes it will make up for deficiencies elsewhere.

Watson has his spot seen up and I want to see Murley/Freeman fight it out for the 11 shirt.

Yeah, that's absolutely bang on.

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 9:02 pmNeedlessly sarky.

It's a brand.

Puja

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 10:02 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 9:15 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 8:33 pm I still don’t get the Arundell thing to be honest. He’s an incredible prospect, but having him learn how to play a new position whilst being introduced to international rugby as a teenager just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Yes he’s had some fantastic touches but I don’t see how it makes any more sense than picking Radwan or another ‘hail Mary’ option. He simply doesn’t deserve the shirt, it’s a gamble in the hopes it will make up for deficiencies elsewhere.

Watson has his spot seen up and I want to see Murley/Freeman fight it out for the 11 shirt.

Yeah, that's absolutely bang on.

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 9:02 pmNeedlessly sarky.

It's a brand.

Puja

Fair enough.


Wasn't Malins originally supposed to be replacing Daly at full back but Steward's justifiably secured that. There must be another way to use his great footwork and distribution skills. Outside centre a la Slade/Lozowski?

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:28 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:24 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 5:51 pm

Trouble is that we never gave Wade a chance (too small? - though England eventually overcame that prejudice with Neil Back) and haven't given Radwan a fair go, instead we've picked slower but apparently more dependable alternatives.

Others on this bored or, more importantly, in the England selection loop, may want that. For the oft-stated reason that wingers don't get many chances in international rugby, they've got to be able to kick/chase/tackle in the main etc etc.

I would have preferred to see Wade given a decent run of games. Ditto Radwan. Just my opinion, mind.

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 9:17 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 9:02 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:51 pm

Indeed, they were being kept out of the final 6N games for notoriously boring selections like Watson and Arundell.

Puja

Needlessly sarky.

How many passes did OHC get before being dropped (yes I know he got injured, but wasn't picked again)?

Meanwhile the relatively slow Malins got games whereas the likes of the more dynamic Freeman and Murley didn't.

Whilst I'm not really a Malins fan there's more to wing play than pure speed. Not sure why we persisted with him though as we didn't play to his strengths, we could have used him as a secondary playmaker and gone with two running centres. Could have been fun to watch whilst remaining solid in the tactical battle. Malins has scored quite a lot for Sarries and looked pretty dynamic playing for Bristol.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 9:08 am

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:28 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:24 pm

Wade probably should have had more chances than he got.

Radwan is competing with a raft of players who are different but have equally reasonable cases for selection. Murley, Hassell-Collins and Freeman are hardly slow/conservative wingers and all have vastly superior try scoring rates than Radwan as well as better all round games. I’d have him ahead of Malins and Nowell, but its’s not a conspiracy that he’s not included.

Agree that there's strong competition but sadly none of the three you mention is getting chances either, more's the pity.

OHC has played and imo struggled (albeit in a poor team), Freeman was outstanding in Oz (and mysterious why Splendid Braveman hasn't seen fit to stick him in a match day squad yet -iirc), Murley has been in lots of squads. TBH I don't think our presenting issue is not selecting or embracing talented and quick wingers.