RugbyRebels

In contrast, Tom Willis has had barely any time in camp and has made it so that suggests that Borthwick was willing to be convinced by someone. Pure speculation, but it seems like Willis did what Mercer didn’t.

Or maybe it was a 50:50 call that Willis edged. Willis is a very good player, so not a slight on Mercer.

Assuming they take two 8s, I suspect Mercer was competing with Dombrandt as the loose 8 option. Will Willis and Billy as tighter players.

Tough on Mercer as Dombrandt has hardly set the world alight, but I really like Willis and think he has a lot to offer.

I can't see us taking three 8s, with Ludlam, Curry and Jack Willis all capable of playing there, and I think Vunipola will go if fit. I guess it doesn't make sense to rely on two uncapped players in the meantime and Tom Willis just gives that vibe to me that he will fit right in at international level.

Those cut -
Dunn, Ewels, T Hill, Mercer, Heyes, Mitchell, F Smith, Freeman & Dingwall

T Willis is a top player so i've no gripes with him coming in. Will he make more of an impression than Mercer apparently has? We'll see. The squad is openside heavy so 2 or 3 of them arent going to make it. Tight head is sorted. Hooker close to it - Dan is an exciting selection, the one true bolter.

SH looks shit. Care, Youngs and JVP with Mitchell cut and Quirke overlooked.

A few difficult choices to be made but thats to be expected.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:43 pm In contrast, Tom Willis has had barely any time in camp and has made it so that suggests that Borthwick was willing to be convinced by someone. Pure speculation, but it seems like Willis did what Mercer didn’t.

Or maybe it was a 50:50 call that Willis edged. Willis is a very good player, so not a slight on Mercer.

TWillis's first time in Borthwick's camp, I think? I view that selection as more having a chance to have a look at him, rather than him being picked above anyone - if he fails to impress, no doubt he'll be released.

Puja

There is still a fair bit of butchery to come. 46 (including the 5 on rehab) to be cut to 33, I believe.

Can't fathom choices at 8, 9 and wing. Love JM of course but he's there on past performances from some time ago. Pleased for VRR, but retaining BY over Mitchell is baffling, the positivity on youtube and twitter for Ewels and Mercer breaking records in training painted a very false positivity it seems....

Freeman cut is daft, ditto Mitchell. And Porter wtaf.

But the doozie is both Care and Youngs.

Pretty average tbh.

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:16 am
Overall - it could be worse IMO.

Puja

it could certainly be better. Theres a lot of old/dross there.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:07 pm Freeman cut is daft, ditto Mitchell. And Porter wtaf.

But the doozie is both Care and Youngs.

Pretty average tbh.

I’m more disappointed by Mercer’s omission. It feels like Freeman was just never fancied so I didn’t expect to see him there.

Picking Care obviously isn’t looking to the future, but you could argue he brings similar attacking instincts to Mitchell. In a tournament scenario, Care’s experience and his familiarity with Dombrandt (and Smith) could be useful. Youngs was always going so I’d kind of resigned myself to it.

Hopefully Porter is only there until Lawrence recovers.

SB is reportedly fixed on his 33 within 5 or 6. How many cast-iron certainties does he have for the starting XV?

In the forwards: George, Itoje and Curry, presumably. Are Genge and Sinckler doubt-free? Might J Willis not be inked in?

In the backs: Farrell and Steward. Beyond them, though? Watson, arguably. The rest are debatable, not certain.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 8:06 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:07 pm Freeman cut is daft, ditto Mitchell. And Porter wtaf.

But the doozie is both Care and Youngs.

Pretty average tbh.

I’m more disappointed by Mercer’s omission. It feels like Freeman was just never fancied so I didn’t expect to see him there.

Picking Care obviously isn’t looking to the future, but you could argue he brings similar attacking instincts to Mitchell. In a tournament scenario, Care’s experience and his familiarity with Dombrandt (and Smith) could be useful. Youngs was always going so I’d kind of resigned myself to it.

Hopefully Porter is only there until Lawrence recovers.

There must be something about Mercer some coaches dont like; I've not watched any Top 14 games, so don't know what I'm missing. Mind my comments were an initial reaction- the more I look at the squad the more meh I feel, even if no much of a surprise- but there are too many 'meh' players in there.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 8:44 am SB is reportedly fixed on his 33 within 5 or 6. How many cast-iron certainties does he have for the starting XV?

In the forwards: George, Itoje and Curry, presumably. Are Genge and Sinckler doubt-free? Might J Willis not be inked in?

In the backs: Farrell and Steward. Beyond them, though? Watson, arguably. The rest are debatable, not certain.

All of those plus a good handful more are absolutely nailed on. I'm not sure why you'd be question guys like Genge, Sinkler, Willis. At tight-head, scrumhalf, fullback it looks like we're down to the final options already. I'd be amazed if any of Youngs, Slade, Daly, Ford, Billy, Watson aren't in.

It's not about who is world class or would make the Lions, it's just whether anybody is realistically going to knock those guys out of the squad. They may not be the options we'd want, or have made the progress in their careers that we'd want, but that's just where we are. I know Billy, Ford and Daly haven't been involved but like Watson they have a lot of credit and experience to fall back on as soon as they show any kind of form/fitness.

It's the very predictable consequence of investing 7 years in the plans of one coach and then ditching him with no time rebuild/reshape the team.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 8:44 am SB is reportedly fixed on his 33 within 5 or 6. How many cast-iron certainties does he have for the starting XV?

In the forwards: George, Itoje and Curry, presumably. Are Genge and Sinckler doubt-free? Might J Willis not be inked in?

In the backs: Farrell and Steward. Beyond them, though? Watson, arguably. The rest are debatable, not certain.

Lawes and Genge are the vice captains so you'd assume they are certainties in terms of squad selection.

In terms of selection I'd expect the following to be penned in;

Genge, George, ???
???, Itoje
Lawes, ???, Curry
JVP, ?Farrell?
?Farrell?, Lawrence
???, Steward, Watson

Stuart and Sinckler will battle it out for the 3 shirt. With Chessum injured then Itoje's lock partner is slightly up in the air though it'll probably be Ribbans. 8 is anyone's guess. Sadly Farrell will play either 10 or 12 so it's just which and who slots in alongside him. The left wing feels wide open as well.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:20 pm I wouldnt have selected May. He looks shot as a top level player. Plenty of options available with Arundell, Murley, Watson and Freeman on the wings.

Another selection that raised one of my eyebrows was Underhill. Is he really at the level he was and can his fitness be relied upon? Its not as if we're short of alternatives at 7.

When on form imo Underhill is really worth picking because his defence is an X factor in the way Jack Willis’ fetching is. If he’d been fit for last Lions tour it might have lead to a better outcome?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 8:44 am SB is reportedly fixed on his 33 within 5 or 6. How many cast-iron certainties does he have for the starting XV?

In the forwards: George, Itoje and Curry, presumably. Are Genge and Sinckler doubt-free? Might J Willis not be inked in?

In the backs: Farrell and Steward. Beyond them, though? Watson, arguably. The rest are debatable, not certain.

I’d actually question T Curry being inked in - Ludlam’s a better all round 6, J Willis ( and Underhill imo + Pearson) better 7’s - won’t go there on 8 but I think the competition has overtaken Curry since he was last selected. I think he probably will get selected but more on past reputation than being demonstrably better than rivals.

Underhill hasn't been in consistent good form for some time and is made of glass. Pearson is an unknown quantity at international level and Willis didn't set the world alight in the 6N like we hoped. Tom Curry has nearly 50 caps and was the Lions go to on the flank. I would be surprised if Curry wasn't the go to option, it will take some seriously good performances in the friendlies.

Curry did have his injury issues last season but was approaching some very good form by the end.

jngf wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 6:18 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 8:44 am SB is reportedly fixed on his 33 within 5 or 6. How many cast-iron certainties does he have for the starting XV?

In the forwards: George, Itoje and Curry, presumably. Are Genge and Sinckler doubt-free? Might J Willis not be inked in?

In the backs: Farrell and Steward. Beyond them, though? Watson, arguably. The rest are debatable, not certain.

I’d actually question T Curry being inked in - Ludlam’s a better all round 6, J Willis ( and Underhill imo + Pearson) better 7’s - won’t go there on 8 but I think the competition has overtaken Curry since he was last selected. I think he probably will get selected but more on past reputation than being demonstrably better than rivals.

Oh no. Not the drop Curry lunacy again …

I think you must have missed this:

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:59 pm Well we all know stats are everything.



This one’s for you Jngf.

I thought Willis went very well in the 6N other than France but he obvs got the memo that we were recreating the Battle of Hastings and was as crap as every other England player.
You might as well advocate for Neil Back as Underhill given how much the latter has played in the last few years (RWC hyperbole clause invoked).
T Cuzza is class and I’d have him at 6 with J Willy at 7. All that said, if Silly Borsteward is going to stick to his 6N ‘game plan’ this autumn then a fit (lol) Underhill might be our best bet at 7.

btw....Cokanasiga has slipped in under radar somewhat?

still mystified re Freeman.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:03 pm btw....Cokanasiga has slipped in under radar somewhat?

still mystified re Freeman.

I personally don't get the Freeman love on the board. I mean, he's good. Wouldn't be outraged if he was in there. But what's the USP that's making you all think it's a travesty that he's not involved? He doesn't seem lightning quick or particularly evasive or creative or anything other than just being a decent enough winger. Did pretty well in a couple of games against Australia and appears to have a reputation from that.

I don't mind giving Cokanasiga a chance. If he can be got up to form and in synch with the attacking structures, he's got the capacity to provide something that no-one else in our team can. It is a big if, but he does seem very much like a confidence player and, faith invested in him could be significantly repaid. If he can't get back to his best, then there's plenty of other wingers in the training squad, so it seems like a gamble with no downside.

Puja

Owen Farrell (Saracens, 106 caps)

Gross.

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:34 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:03 pm btw....Cokanasiga has slipped in under radar somewhat?

still mystified re Freeman.

I personally don't get the Freeman love on the board. I mean, he's good. Wouldn't be outraged if he was in there. But what's the USP that's making you all think it's a travesty that he's not involved? He doesn't seem lightning quick or particularly evasive or creative or anything other than just being a decent enough winger. Did pretty well in a couple of games against Australia and appears to have a reputation from that.

I don't mind giving Cokanasiga a chance. If he can be got up to form and in synch with the attacking structures, he's got the capacity to provide something that no-one else in our team can. It is a big if, but he does seem very much like a confidence player and, faith invested in him could be significantly repaid. If he can't get back to his best, then there's plenty of other wingers in the training squad, so it seems like a gamble with no downside.

Puja

Cokanasiga is a weird one, in that nobody is surprised to see him get selected because he offers so much in theory, pace, power, agility, “x-factor”. But you really don’t know what sort of ROI you’re getting.

He’s become hard to evaluate a bit like Manu (and weirdly Matt Banahan) was where he goes and steamrollers 5 players to score and the reaction is “well yeah he’s huge, that’s the least he should be doing”.

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:34 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:03 pm btw....Cokanasiga has slipped in under radar somewhat?

still mystified re Freeman.

I personally don't get the Freeman love on the board. I mean, he's good. Wouldn't be outraged if he was in there. But what's the USP that's making you all think it's a travesty that he's not involved? He doesn't seem lightning quick or particularly evasive or creative or anything other than just being a decent enough winger. Did pretty well in a couple of games against Australia and appears to have a reputation from that.

Puja

I’d argue he did very well against Oz which is more international form than any other winger selected.
Arundell: freak talent but goes missing outside highlight reel stuff due to being so inexperienced.
Coka: perma injured with a small body of form since his debut. Defensively suspect, ditto under the high ball.
Malins: flaky player who goes from the sublime to the ridiculous within a 5m run. Probably not a winger, even in his own mind.
May: seemingly picked on what he achieved a couple of years ago.
Murley: been brilliant in the Prem but then so has OHC…
Watson: world class… if he can stay fit.

It’s not as if we’re asking Staid Blunderbuss to drop Lomu, Robinson and Penaud. There’s also the fact that he’s thrown all his chips in with Steward at 15 and if he goes down injured then I’d argue the Freeman would be the best option to replace him like-for-like.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 5:17 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:34 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:03 pm btw....Cokanasiga has slipped in under radar somewhat?

still mystified re Freeman.

I personally don't get the Freeman love on the board. I mean, he's good. Wouldn't be outraged if he was in there. But what's the USP that's making you all think it's a travesty that he's not involved? He doesn't seem lightning quick or particularly evasive or creative or anything other than just being a decent enough winger. Did pretty well in a couple of games against Australia and appears to have a reputation from that.

Puja

I’d argue he did very well against Oz which is more international form than any other winger selected.
Arundell: freak talent but goes missing outside highlight reel stuff due to being so inexperienced.
Coka: perma injured with a small body of form since his debut. Defensively suspect, ditto under the high ball.
Malins: flaky player who goes from the sublime to the ridiculous within a 5m run. Probably not a winger, even in his own mind.
May: seemingly picked on what he achieved a couple of years ago.
Murley: been brilliant in the Prem but then so has OHC…
Watson: world class… if he can stay fit.

It’s not as if we’re asking Staid Blunderbuss to drop Lomu, Robinson and Penaud. There’s also the fact that he’s thrown all his chips in with Steward at 15 and if he goes down injured then I’d argue the Freeman would be the best option to replace him like-for-like.

Agree with that last point in particular. Freeman is a good fullback, limited only by the fact he plays for Saints where Furbank is first choice (mainly because it gives Saints a second playmaker). Freeman being one of the few who is genuinely as good as wing as he is fullback. He's big, he's quick, he can kick, offload and he knows how to finish. Given our likely kicking tactics his size and ability under the high ball would have been a benefit as well.

12 tries in 20 games last season and 14 in 21 the season before that (includes all games Saints and England). At 22 he's been really good for a couple of seasons now.