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Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:59 pm
by Zhivago
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:38 pm
by rowan
Superb article! That Counterpunch is a great site, runs some brilliant articles.
So what's the next step, I wonder? Bring in a female president by smokescreening her war crimes with a circus clown-like opponent, make a full-scale invasion of Syria, and then claim afterward that she had to do it, to prove as a woman she could be strong? She'll be just like Margaret Thatcher, lionized as an 'Iron Lady,' but of course just another hideous war criminal who happens to have a vagina. & if this triggers World War III with Russia and Iran, never mind. Nazi America will win eventually. Millions will die in the process, but since when has a 'little thing' like millions of lives stopped the US?
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:58 am
by Sandydragon
Zhivago wrote:Sandydragon wrote:Zhivago wrote:
The thread has been dominated by the others disagreeing with the last point. I'd like to re-focus on the first sentence of Sandy's post. Should Al-Jazeera be regarded as a trusted source on this matter?
I say no for the following reasons:
a) It is state owned by Qatar. It is well established that Qatar is opposed to Assad. It is participating in the conflict. It is therefore not a neutral source.
b) It quotes a member of the 'White Helmets'. This group was founded by a hostile military agent and has been shown in the past to engage in disinformation against Assad. The organisation has also been shown to collaborate with terrorists - which is further demonstrated by the US gov revoking the visa of its leader. It is therefore also not neutral.
Sandy says yes because:
a) The story quoting only the same single biased source has been repeated in the Western media too.
I say that's not a good enough reason, because they are still relying on the same single biased discredited source.
Please, Sandy, I ask, do you still disregard these reasons that I raise?
There is no source that is totally neutral or objective. Hence the need for multiple source validation. If you care to read the articles, you can get a sense of who the original source is, if it's not specified clearly.
When you look at some of the blogs out there that I'm sure you would like, I think you might find that they often rely on one source, Hersh for example is quoted on over a dozen sites that a cursory search found.
I note previously that you regard the sources you use as being more accurate. That is incorrect.
Incidentally the use f barrel bombs and chemical weapons by the Syrian forces has been reported by multiple sources, not just the white helmets who seem to stir up such disagreeable opinion (I note none of their critics are running around in a war zone doing humanitarian work). It's perfectly possible for aNGO to do humanitarian work and try to influence the news, yet the spite directed at them it quite extraordinary.
You seem to have missed my point. Your 'multiple source validation' method is flawed if all your mutiple 'sources' are regurgitating the same story from the same source. The White Helmets are hardly an NGO given that they are funded primarily by the UK and US governments.
And you seem to be missing, or ignoring, min about checking the original source. Unlike the blogs, including counterpunch which all blindly published the same flawed article.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:01 am
by Sandydragon
The same website that uncritically ran Hersh's article decided to do a hatchet job on the Syrian opposition. Pity they don't use the same level of criticism on their own articles.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:19 am
by Sandydragon
UGagain wrote:Sandydragon wrote:
The same website that uncritically ran Hersh's article decided to do a hatchet job on the Syrian opposition. Pity they don't use the same level of criticism on their own articles.
How often do you see news organisations running critical arguments against themselves?
Absolutely fucking ridiculous.
Utter clown.
Still can prove your point, can you? UG smokescreen of abuse kicks in as is utterly predictable. Sad and pathetic.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:23 am
by Sandydragon
A list of sme of the other chemical weapon attacks in Syria. I'm sure in every case the witness's lied or were browbeaten by CIA agents posing as medics
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/20 ... civil-war/
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:30 am
by UGagain
Sandydragon wrote:UGagain wrote:Sandydragon wrote:
The same website that uncritically ran Hersh's article decided to do a hatchet job on the Syrian opposition. Pity they don't use the same level of criticism on their own articles.
How often do you see news organisations running critical arguments against themselves?
Absolutely fucking ridiculous.
Utter clown.
Still can prove your point, can you? UG smokescreen of abuse kicks in as is utterly predictable. Sad and pathetic.
What the fuck are you talking about?
You don't get to frame the debate here you dishonest hypocrite.
How often do you see news organisations running critical arguments against themselves?
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:35 am
by Sandydragon
UGagain wrote:Sandydragon wrote:UGagain wrote:
How often do you see news organisations running critical arguments against themselves?
Absolutely fucking ridiculous.
Utter clown.
Still can prove your point, can you? UG smokescreen of abuse kicks in as is utterly predictable. Sad and pathetic.
What the fuck are you talking about?
You don't get to frame the debate here you dishonest hypocrite.
How often do you see news organisations running critical arguments against themselves?
Neither do you. Although plent of mainstream media sources regularly host writers with opposing views to their norm.
Bias is everywhere, attempts to get a moral high ground with something like counterpunch or any of the other ,alternative' media sources is just laughable.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:38 am
by UGagain
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:00 am
by Zhivago
UGagain wrote:
Good old Bellendcat, eh?
He has an affinity for biased sources, it must be said.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:04 am
by UGagain
Zhivago wrote:UGagain wrote:
Good old Bellendcat, eh?
He has an affinity for biased sources, it must be said.
Given his comments on 'websites' it's just laughable.
I just don't understand how grown adults behave like this.
Re: RE: Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:05 am
by Donny osmond
First there was this
Zhivago wrote:
You seem to have missed my point. Your 'multiple source validation' method is flawed if all your mutiple 'sources' are regurgitating the same story from the same source. .
But then there was this!!
Zhivago wrote:
He has an affinity for biased sources, it must be said.
I love student politicians
Re: RE: Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:01 am
by Zhivago
Donny osmond wrote:First there was this
Zhivago wrote:
You seem to have missed my point. Your 'multiple source validation' method is flawed if all your mutiple 'sources' are regurgitating the same story from the same source. .
But then there was this!!
Zhivago wrote:
He has an affinity for biased sources, it must be said.
I love student politicians
If you've got nothing useful to add, then please refrain from commenting, Donk.
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:05 am
by Donny osmond
Zhivago wrote:Donny osmond wrote:First there was this
Zhivago wrote:
You seem to have missed my point. Your 'multiple source validation' method is flawed if all your mutiple 'sources' are regurgitating the same story from the same source. .
But then there was this!!
Zhivago wrote:
He has an affinity for biased sources, it must be said.
I love student politicians
If you've got nothing useful to add, then please refrain from commenting, Donk.
Hmmm, that's one option.
But then pointing out other people's hypocrisy is always useful, at least for entertainment purposes.
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:10 am
by Zhivago
Donny osmond wrote:Zhivago wrote:Donny osmond wrote:First there was this
But then there was this!!
I love student politicians
If you've got nothing useful to add, then please refrain from commenting, Donk.
Hmmm, that's one option.
But then pointing out other people's hypocrisy is always useful, at least for entertainment purposes.
Except I never advocated relying simply on quantity of sources, but rather on the quality of the sources. So your accusation of hypocrisy is an unfounded ad hominem attack, which adds nothing to the debate.
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:17 pm
by Donny osmond
Zhivago wrote:Donny osmond wrote:Zhivago wrote:
If you've got nothing useful to add, then please refrain from commenting, Donk.
Hmmm, that's one option.
But then pointing out other people's hypocrisy is always useful, at least for entertainment purposes.
Except I never advocated relying simply on quantity of sources, but rather on the quality of the sources. So your accusation of hypocrisy is an unfounded ad hominem attack, which adds nothing to the debate.
Really? I notice Sandy's point remains conveniently ignored.
Sandydragon wrote:
And you seem to be missing, or ignoring, min about checking the original source. Unlike the blogs, including counterpunch which all blindly published the same flawed article.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:34 pm
by rowan
This is the keystone argument for me:
WHO BENEFITS?
The starting point for many criminal investigations is who has a motive? Who benefits from an action or event?
In order to prevail, the Syrian opposition needs foreign intervention. In order to prevail, the Syrian government needs to prevent foreign intervention.
Who benefited from from use of sarin gas that would cross Obama’s ‘red line’? The answer was always obvious. This received surprisingly little consideration as the US Government and humanitarian groups like Human Rights Watch argued that the Syrian Government was culpable without even considering who had motive.
Since that time, in-depth analysis of the August 2013 chemical attack in Ghouta increasingly points to the use of sarin gas by the rebels not the Syrian government. The “vector analysis” advanced by HRW has been discounted. The US and other countries almost began an international attack on the basis of false claims and analysis.
Similarly, who benefits from the use of chlorine gas that would violate the new UN Security Resolution? To ask the question is to answer it. Clearly it is the opposition rebels who benefit when the Syrian government is charged with using chlorine gas bombs. Clearly they are the ones who seek foreign intervention or imposition of a No Fly Zone.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:29 pm
by Sandydragon
Only in Columbo. You need some evidence before piecing together a narrative.
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:36 am
by Zhivago
Donny osmond wrote:Zhivago wrote:Donny osmond wrote:
Hmmm, that's one option.
But then pointing out other people's hypocrisy is always useful, at least for entertainment purposes.
Except I never advocated relying simply on quantity of sources, but rather on the quality of the sources. So your accusation of hypocrisy is an unfounded ad hominem attack, which adds nothing to the debate.
Really? I notice Sandy's point remains conveniently ignored.
Sandydragon wrote:
And you seem to be missing, or ignoring, min about checking the original source. Unlike the blogs, including counterpunch which all blindly published the same flawed article.
Why should I reply to Sandy's post about checking sources when I clearly check my sources thoroughly?
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:25 am
by Sandydragon
Zhivago wrote:Donny osmond wrote:Zhivago wrote:
Except I never advocated relying simply on quantity of sources, but rather on the quality of the sources. So your accusation of hypocrisy is an unfounded ad hominem attack, which adds nothing to the debate.
Really? I notice Sandy's point remains conveniently ignored.
Sandydragon wrote:
And you seem to be missing, or ignoring, min about checking the original source. Unlike the blogs, including counterpunch which all blindly published the same flawed article.
Why should I reply to Sandy's post about checking sources when I clearly check my sources thoroughly?
Yet you happily cite counterpunch when that is hugely biased. It's also one of the sites that fell for the Hersh story hook line and sinker.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:44 am
by Sandydragon
Russia has been caught out in its attempt to air-brush its use of incendiary weapons over populated areas in Aleppo. Having been caught out in the act, they basically have carried on as if nothing happens. Unsurprisingly, this use of incendiary weapons also contravenes the laws of armed conflict and they should not be used in areas where non-combatants are likely to be present, like a city such as Aleppo.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/20 ... ian-bombs/
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:01 pm
by rowan
I doubt that very much, but the bottom line is Russia are there at the bequest of the government to fight the rebels and terrorists America and its allies sent in. & having Trump accuse Obama of 'founding ISIS' is just another transparent tactic to try and make the truth look ridiculous by having a circus clown stage-performer pronounce it.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:11 pm
by Sandydragon
rowan wrote:I doubt that very much, but the bottom line is Russia are there at the bequest of the government to fight the rebels and terrorists America and its allies sent in. & having Trump accuse Obama of 'founding ISIS' is just another transparent tactic to try and make the truth look ridiculous by having a circus clown stage-performer pronounce it.
Bequest or not, Russia still has an obligation to abide by the international laws, which it is a signatory to, concerning the application of military capabilities.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:53 pm
by Zhivago
Sandydragon wrote:Russia has been caught out in its attempt to air-brush its use of incendiary weapons over populated areas in Aleppo. Having been caught out in the act, they basically have carried on as if nothing happens. Unsurprisingly, this use of incendiary weapons also contravenes the laws of armed conflict and they should not be used in areas where non-combatants are likely to be present, like a city such as Aleppo.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/20 ... ian-bombs/
Bellingcat is pure propaganda.
Re: Chlorine Gas Attack reported in Aleppo
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:44 pm
by Sandydragon
Hes not wrong though, especially when the Russian military shows its own video of them deploying the weapons. And Bellingcat is no more propaganda than some of the 'alternative' news site listed on here.