RugbyRebels

Digby wrote:I'd not blame Solomona in the event he proves good enough and plays for England. The issue isn't with him.

Still not actually seen the lad play so no idea if he's going to challenge, or even have a hope to

Same, on both accounts

If he ultimately proves good enough, chooses to play for England, and plays well - then no issues

TheNomad wrote:

Digby wrote:I'd not blame Solomona in the event he proves good enough and plays for England. The issue isn't with him.

Still not actually seen the lad play so no idea if he's going to challenge, or even have a hope to

Same, on both accounts

If he ultimately proves good enough, chooses to play for England, and plays well - then no issues

But he's specifically said (when the rewards were lower), that he didn't feel English and didn't want to play for a nation when his heart wasn't there. He specifically rejected any notion of wanting to be considered English, for which I've got great respect for him.

It wouldn't bother you even slightly if he were to about face and represent our country solely for copious amounts of cash?

Puja

Puja, patriotism v money is not much of a debate for a professional sportsman who plays as a livelihood, IMO. Is moving from one country to another such a huge step up from moving from one club to another or one sport to another, come to that? Provided that rules are adhered to and a player can be relied on to give 100% where's the problem - regardless of any previous press quotes?

It's a simple argument of amateur or professional, for me - more or less where I stand on the Lions. I loved the amateur game and all its traditions but it's a whole new ball park if the game goes professional. Money rules - it's too late to change now.

Money rules but you dislike the Lions?
The very essence of international sport is at risk with mercenaries playing for the country that pays them the most. Some would argue it's already gone.

Oakboy wrote:Puja, patriotism v money is not much of a debate for a professional sportsman who plays as a livelihood, IMO. Is moving from one country to another such a huge step up from moving from one club to another or one sport to another, come to that? Provided that rules are adhered to and a player can be relied on to give 100% where's the problem - regardless of any previous press quotes?

It's a simple argument of amateur or professional, for me - more or less where I stand on the Lions. I loved the amateur game and all its traditions but it's a whole new ball park if the game goes professional. Money rules - it's too late to change now.

So you regard there to be nothing special about playing for your country? It's just a job and the players are just there earning a wage?

Money may rule, but playing for their country still moves players to tears with passion. It's more than just a job.

Puja

Mellsblue wrote:Money rules but you dislike the Lions?
The very essence of international sport is at risk with mercenaries playing for the country that pays them the most. Some would argue it's already gone.

Oh, yes. If there were no Lions tradition and somebody dreamed up the concept there is no chance of it happening regardless of any commercial gain.

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Puja, patriotism v money is not much of a debate for a professional sportsman who plays as a livelihood, IMO. Is moving from one country to another such a huge step up from moving from one club to another or one sport to another, come to that? Provided that rules are adhered to and a player can be relied on to give 100% where's the problem - regardless of any previous press quotes?

It's a simple argument of amateur or professional, for me - more or less where I stand on the Lions. I loved the amateur game and all its traditions but it's a whole new ball park if the game goes professional. Money rules - it's too late to change now.

So you regard there to be nothing special about playing for your country? It's just a job and the players are just there earning a wage?

Money may rule, but playing for their country still moves players to tears with passion. It's more than just a job.

Puja

But, players are emotional and passionate even when playing for a non-birth country. Similarly, players get emotional and passionate when top club competitions are won. I think international rugby is the pinnacle of professional achievement and the RWC is the pinnacle of that pinnacle. It must be marvellous for them to earn their living doing something they love but the two aspects (money and patriotism) are inextricably linked no matter what motivational factor is bolted on. Reputation and marketing profile count as well as wages, of course.

providing if selected that Solomona works hard and plays well I'd have no issues. he might have changed his mind, he might have just said what he thought right at that moment in time, and I never held it against Dallaglio who said some stupider stuff.

I'd also have no issue with Solomona if he simply wants to play club rugby here and test rugby for Samoa. my issues are with the IRB on qualification, and to a lesser degree with the RFU on what they consider the minimum entry point to play for England (such we can have Nathan Hughes but we couldn't have Steff)

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Money rules but you dislike the Lions?
The very essence of international sport is at risk with mercenaries playing for the country that pays them the most. Some would argue it's already gone.

Oh, yes. If there were no Lions tradition and somebody dreamed up the concept there is no chance of it happening regardless of any commercial gain.

Woah,....let me take a couple of moments to work through that sentence.
Feck it,...I don't care if it is a cash cow or something else.......we have to hold on to the Lions and the Barbarians and all the invitational sides. It encapsulates the game.

These guys play their entire career on the basis of 'being picked'.

M Vunipola struggling to make the 6N.

That's not good. He's probably our best ball player after Ford and Slade.

Are Marler and Mullan still next in line or is someone else ready to step up? Is Genge any more than just promise at this point?

If Mako isnt fit then I suspect Marler and Mullan will cover. They are both perfectly decent players who have done well for England. It might be a season too soon for Genge. A left field suggestion might be Rapava-Ruskin at Worcester who is a really strong scrummager and is exceptional in the loose.

Rocco tells us what more he has to do: http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/bath-rug ... story.html

Which Tyler wrote:Rocco tells us what more he has to do: http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/bath-rug ... story.html

While I won't deny that all of those are things that he does need to work on, I shudder to think about the size of the list of issues that Yarde must have.

Puja

And it's not like May, Watson and Nowell are without issue

More info: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... and-exeter

Article on the BBC website about a training squad for next week, Manu Tuilagi, Itoje, Haskell, Nowell and Anthony Watson all named. A first call up for Nathan Catt as well, Joe Launchberry is out with injury though.

33 players attending Brighton training camp from 2-3 January:

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints) *injury replacement for Sam Jones (Wasps), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

45-man elite player squad:

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Sam Jones (Wasps), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Revised EPS:

Hooker: Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tommy Taylor (Wasps)

Prop: Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Lock: Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Backrow: Jack Clifford (Harlequins), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Sam Jones (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Scrum Half: Danny Care (Harlequins), Dan Robson (Wasps), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly Half: Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens)

Centre: Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Back Three: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

As a Tigers fan I don't get what Williams has done to deserve his spot.

Also don't get why you drop Genge.

No Wade, no Goode. Seems odd on that front.

Agreed with you EP on Williams, although Genge I can understand - he's not ready to be backup 1 to Marler in the 6N, so he's behind Mullan, and it doesn't hurt for Eddie to look at another young loosehead, rather than putting all of his eggs in one basket.

Roko not making the 33 training in Brighton suggests that Yarde is more likely to see gametime in the 6N than he is, which is just baffling based on form, both recent and across the last year.

Puja

Does the absence of Mako increase the likelihood of Sinkler coming in for Cole, to keep the front row carrying option? Marler isn't a bad carrier, but he isn't Mako, who was doing Cole's carrying as well in the AIs.

Puja wrote:Agreed with you EP on Williams, although Genge I can understand - he's not ready to be backup 1 to Marler in the 6N, so he's behind Mullan, and it doesn't hurt for Eddie to look at another young loosehead, rather than putting all of his eggs in one basket.

Roko not making the 33 training in Brighton suggests that Yarde is more likely to see gametime in the 6N than he is, which is just baffling based on form, both recent and across the last year.

Puja

Um. He is, isn't he?

I'm a Yarde fan but I agree. He doesn't seem to be ironing out any of these same errors, whilst I'd say Roko actually looks the most error-free of all the options?

Nope, behind Yarde

By my reckoning just the three changes:

In: Nathan Catt, Tom Wood, Marland Yarde
Out: Ellis Genge, Alex Goode, Will Evans

Presumably Watson being considered for full back so swap in a winger for Goode. Don't really understand the Catt/Genge swap but Wood certainly did enough in the Autumn to warrant being brought back into the EPS.