francoisfou wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:28 pm
From what I’ve seen and read of both Zach Mercer and Tom Willis here in France, the England 8 jersey should be in very good hands for a few seasons. Both are exceptional players and light years ahead of Dombrandt.
Sorry, but I don’t agree with that last sentence. When they’ve played head to head (which has been pretty recent), there’s been very little between them.
I actually think Mercer is the best of the three, but I really don’t think it’s by that much. Certainly not light years.
I just don’t understand why Dombrandt is getting such an rough ride?
Why are other inexperienced players exempt? For example, OHC has done very little and hasn’t done particularly well with any opportunities he has had, but he’s somehow escaped any criticism.
francoisfou wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:28 pm
From what I’ve seen and read of both Zach Mercer and Tom Willis here in France, the England 8 jersey should be in very good hands for a few seasons. Both are exceptional players and light years ahead of Dombrandt.
Sorry, but I don’t agree with that last sentence. When they’ve played head to head (which has been pretty recent), there’s been very little between them.
I actually think Mercer is the best of the three, but I really don’t think it’s by that much. Certainly not light years.
I just don’t understand why Dombrandt is getting such an rough ride?
Why are other inexperienced players exempt? For example, OHC has done very little and hasn’t done particularly well with any opportunities he has had, but he’s somehow escaped any criticism.
Ok, I’m exaggerating, but thanks for your swift reply !
fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:54 pm
OHC hasnt done much but he's hardly had a pass. Does he need to impose himself more? yes, i guess so.
Steward could do with a positive performance too. He's done very little of note so far in this 6N's.
I mean, I've noted OHC four times in the first half of the Italy game and none of those were positive comments. He's not doing especially well with what little opportunity he is getting.
Agreed on Steward, although he's still got plenty of credit in the bank.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:54 pm
OHC hasnt done much but he's hardly had a pass. Does he need to impose himself more? yes, i guess so.
Steward could do with a positive performance too. He's done very little of note so far in this 6N's.
I mean, I've noted OHC four times in the first half of the Italy game and none of those were positive comments. He's not doing especially well with what little opportunity he is getting.
Agreed on Steward, although he's still got plenty of credit in the bank.
Puja
Yeah Steward is just ticking along so far. Sitting down the Scottish 12 with that carry early doors gave hope it him being given more ball and having more influence that hasn't materialised. Well bar that nice hard line he ran Vs Italy that Slade missed, could have been a try.
Hopefully in the big occasions when he's under more pressure he'll come alive.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:54 pm
OHC hasnt done much but he's hardly had a pass. Does he need to impose himself more? yes, i guess so.
Steward could do with a positive performance too. He's done very little of note so far in this 6N's.
I mean, I've noted OHC four times in the first half of the Italy game and none of those were positive comments. He's not doing especially well with what little opportunity he is getting.
Agreed on Steward, although he's still got plenty of credit in the bank.
Puja
Yeah Steward is just ticking along so far. Sitting down the Scottish 12 with that carry early doors gave hope it him being given more ball and having more influence that hasn't materialised. Well bar that nice hard line he ran Vs Italy that Slade missed, could have been a try.
Hopefully in the big occasions when he's under more pressure he'll come alive.
Tight Calcutta Cup game at Twickenham, after four losers in five years, not a big occasion?
francoisfou wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:28 pm
From what I’ve seen and read of both Zach Mercer and Tom Willis here in France, the England 8 jersey should be in very good hands for a few seasons. Both are exceptional players and light years ahead of Dombrandt.
Sorry, but I don’t agree with that last sentence. When they’ve played head to head (which has been pretty recent), there’s been very little between them.
I actually think Mercer is the best of the three, but I really don’t think it’s by that much. Certainly not light years.
I just don’t understand why Dombrandt is getting such an rough ride?
Why are other inexperienced players exempt? For example, OHC has done very little and hasn’t done particularly well with any opportunities he has had, but he’s somehow escaped any criticism.
I don't think he is- everyone seems to agree his intl efforts this season have been inconsistent (and seems to resonate with the casual observers of Quins tbh, but accept that is unfair from the evidence of quinsians) but that he was better v Italy; there were many calls for OHC to be canned post Scotland and again post Italy, ditto Ben Curry who actually was dropped.
Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:55 pm
I don't think he is- everyone seems to agree his intl efforts this season have been inconsistent (and seems to resonate with the casual observers of Quins tbh, but accept that is unfair from the evidence of quinsians) but that he was better v Italy; there were many calls for OHC to be canned post Scotland and again post Italy, ditto Ben Curry who actually was dropped.
Conversely, DomBrandy, whilst getting a rough ride, hasn't really had many calls for being dropped - maybe mentioned as making room in a reshuffle, but not actively called for - to my memory.
I do remember not being alone in calling for OHC to be dropped for Watson, however.
Last edited by Which Tyler on Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I mean, I've noted OHC four times in the first half of the Italy game and none of those were positive comments. He's not doing especially well with what little opportunity he is getting.
Agreed on Steward, although he's still got plenty of credit in the bank.
Puja
Yeah Steward is just ticking along so far. Sitting down the Scottish 12 with that carry early doors gave hope it him being given more ball and having more influence that hasn't materialised. Well bar that nice hard line he ran Vs Italy that Slade missed, could have been a try.
Hopefully in the big occasions when he's under more pressure he'll come alive.
Tight Calcutta Cup game at Twickenham, after four losers in five years, not a big occasion?
It's a fair point. I was just thinking that Steward tends to be quieter against the teams like Italy and then comes alive Vs SA for example. Either way we want to see a bit more of him Vs Wales. Can't afford to let Dan Biggar control the kicking game.
For me (having watched a fair bit of Quins) Dombrandt feels like a bit of a luxury player in the way that people used to (wrongly) talk about Tom Croft. You look at the top end performances of Alldrite or Doris and you can't imagine Dombrandt putting on an all aspects masterclass like that, but I can with Mercer. I'm not saying Dombrandt isn't a very very good player, but for me his only route to an outstanding international performance is some line breaks some lovely foot work for a man that big and a lovely soft pass to a finisher. If possible I want my number eight to be a huge influence in all aspects of forward play
ad_tigger wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:08 pm
For me (having watched a fair bit of Quins) Dombrandt feels like a bit of a luxury player in the way that people used to (wrongly) talk about Tom Croft. You look at the top end performances of Alldrite or Doris and you can't imagine Dombrandt putting on an all aspects masterclass like that, but I can with Mercer. I'm not saying Dombrandt isn't a very very good player, but for me his only route to an outstanding international performance is some line breaks some lovely foot work for a man that big and a lovely soft pass to a finisher. If possible I want my number eight to be a huge influence in all aspects of forward play
I think I would tend to agree about him being a luxury player. When the game is free-flowing and he can run lines in space, he's a great asset. However, when it gets tighter and harder and there's more nitty-gritty to be done, that's not when you'll see the best of him. He can do the tighter things, but it's not what he's good at and, at international level, he's going to have to do more graft and less of the expansive things that he's talented at.
Incidentally, I think he would be the most popular player in the Top 14 if he went over there, because he'd be incredible. A French side could afford to have a team that really suited his strengths and freed him up to just do the bits that he's good at. That's why I'm dubious about Mercer coming back and being assumed that he can start for England - I don't know that Dombrandt wouldn't be doing just as well if given that Montpellier team and the same backing that they give Mercer.
Regularly making big important technical tackles, hard yards carrying, being omnipresent throughout a match. Most of my favourite 8s would be pretty much equally effective at six. Dombrant doesn't fit that mould, you'd feel that you were losing something in work rate if you played him there
To be fair to Dombrandt his work rate has been good so far this 6N. More than I thought it would be. As Puja says though it's come at the expense of some of the wonderful attacking play that set him apart. He needs to knit that together over the course of the next few games.
For a big bloke he doesn't hit hard in defence which is a bit of a disappointment, hopefully Sinfield can sort that out. He does do good work at the breakdown for a man of his size though.
FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:48 pm
For a big bloke he doesn't hit hard in defence which is a bit of a disappointment, hopefully Sinfield can sort that out. He does do good work at the breakdown for a man of his size though.
Of course, on the back of a decade's fetish with battering-ram tactics from Billy V, we now have the ultimate 'Jo Bugner-esque' lock in charge. Maybe, not 'punching your weight' will not be high priority with SB or, conversely, he will rate J Willis's all-round intelligent physical impact as a hint to get his brother in to join him.
I hope Dombrandt is selected for the Wales game and cracks it. What he gives in attack could add an element that nobody else can offer but he must deliver an all-round package. I can see nothing wrong with it being made clear to him that he has one more game to do it.
FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:48 pm
For a big bloke he doesn't hit hard in defence which is a bit of a disappointment, hopefully Sinfield can sort that out. He does do good work at the breakdown for a man of his size though.
Of course, on the back of a decade's fetish with battering-ram tactics from Billy V, we now have the ultimate 'Jo Bugner-esque' lock in charge. Maybe, not 'punching your weight' will not be high priority with SB or, conversely, he will rate J Willis's all-round intelligent physical impact as a hint to get his brother in to join him.
I hope Dombrandt is selected for the Wales game and cracks it. What he gives in attack could add an element that nobody else can offer but he must deliver an all-round package. I can see nothing wrong with it being made clear to him that he has one more game to do it.
I suspect he has three more games to do it but pretty much agree.
Considering Borthwick's playing style was minimum impact in contact he does normally prefer players who hit hard and often.
have got to think about lineout....but also re some heavier carrying...so tricky
Sure I’ve seen Cuzza and Dombo both go up but, even if not, I’d still take the trade off.
yep, but ludlam was used as a main jumper. But i have been calling for us to use curry more there.
But id also say ludlam gives an important energy so its not an easy one
I don’t see Ludlam v Curry even being close, tbh, whilst acknowledging Ludlam has been very, very good in this 6N. I think you’ve been spending too long in the players’ lounge at FG
Sure I’ve seen Cuzza and Dombo both go up but, even if not, I’d still take the trade off.
yep, but ludlam was used as a main jumper. But i have been calling for us to use curry more there.
But id also say ludlam gives an important energy so its not an easy one
I don’t see Ludlam v Curry even being close, tbh, whilst acknowledging Ludlam has been very, very good in this 6N. I think you’ve been spending too long in the players’ lounge at FG
i was suggesting him at 8 old fruit. I wasnt a LL fan til this season....massive improvement.
(Said not averse to start all 3)
yep, but ludlam was used as a main jumper. But i have been calling for us to use curry more there.
But id also say ludlam gives an important energy so its not an easy one
I don’t see Ludlam v Curry even being close, tbh, whilst acknowledging Ludlam has been very, very good in this 6N. I think you’ve been spending too long in the players’ lounge at FG
i was suggesting him at 8 old fruit. I wasnt a LL fan til this season....massive improvement.
