RugbyRebels

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:36 am Warburton has obviously been reading this thread and has offered his opinion in The Times today. It was either a bit muddled or I wasn’t fully awake when I read it but the highlights are:
- Curry is the best 7 and should be straight back in the jersey
- Willis and Lawes to fight for the 6 jersey with a horses for courses approach, eg Lawes in vs France for lineout purposes and Willis vs Wales for breakdown ‘bite’.
- He prefers Lawes at lock but worries he is now too light.
- Honourable mention for Ludlam who he thinks has been ‘the emotional heartbeat of England’s defence’ but Curry can replicate that and more
- Complimentary about Dombo.
- Doesn’t mention Earl.

Fair summary that.

twitchy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:48 am

The quote from Genge is risible:

“No, I love it. It’s pressure-plus rugby. Italy jackal at 50 per cent of breakdowns, so when you’re playing 18 phases, you’re giving them nine chances to jackal – so there’s nine opportunities you can lose the ball. It’s six of one and half a dozen of the other. You can do either [run the ball or kick], but let’s try to be good at one of them.”

9 "opportunities" to lose the ball, compared to a 2 in 19 chance of retaining it with Smith or Farrell kicking in the 22. I think I'd rather take my chances with the jackallers, tbh.

Puja

Eeerrrggghhh. He could’ve saved us all a lot of time and just said that we’re not good enough to play multi-phase rugby. Nothing says pressure like kicking away the ball in the oppo 22 and allowing an easy clearance…
What a sausage.

Genge is talking tripe.

If the opposition have a goal line drop out, England have to run the ball back from half way, giving the same number of jackaling opportunities, but nearer the England try line.

Also, it's about time that England adopted a 'we are England and we'll score one more than you' approach, especially against a side who have never beaten us.

We're wasting a generation of very talented backs based on trying to play 'old style England' 10 man rugby. It's tedious and no-one in position to change it seems to have the slightest inclination to.

Crash Hamster wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:32 am Genge is talking tripe.

If the opposition have a goal line drop out, England have to run the ball back from half way, giving the same number of jackaling opportunities, but nearer the England try line.

Also, it's about time that England adopted a 'we are England and we'll score one more than you' approach, especially against a side who have never beaten us.

We're wasting a generation of very talented backs based on trying to play 'old style England' 10 man rugby. It's tedious and no-one in position to change it seems to have the slightest inclination to.

Bang on. This is especially true when we've got one of the best crops of flankers in my time of watching rugby - if we don't believe we can hold onto our own ball now, then what the point even is there in playing rugby?

I'm hopeful that this is temporary and Borthwick's doing what he did with Leicester - heavily restricting what we do and adding in an extra thing every game when we've got it right. You saw it with practically no mauls in the Scotland game and then adding them in for Italy. I'm hoping the Wales game will come with the extra content of "holding onto the fucking ball."

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:37 am

Crash Hamster wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:32 am Genge is talking tripe.

If the opposition have a goal line drop out, England have to run the ball back from half way, giving the same number of jackaling opportunities, but nearer the England try line.

Also, it's about time that England adopted a 'we are England and we'll score one more than you' approach, especially against a side who have never beaten us.

We're wasting a generation of very talented backs based on trying to play 'old style England' 10 man rugby. It's tedious and no-one in position to change it seems to have the slightest inclination to.

Bang on. This is especially true when we've got one of the best crops of flankers in my time of watching rugby - if we don't believe we can hold onto our own ball now, then what the point even is there in playing rugby?

I'm hopeful that this is temporary and Borthwick's doing what he did with Leicester - heavily restricting what we do and adding in an extra thing every game when we've got it right. You saw it with practically no mauls in the Scotland game and then adding them in for Italy. I'm hoping the Wales game will come with the extra content of "holding onto the fucking ball."

Puja

Layering on new bits is standard fare for any new coach, and attack is always the last layer, but not trusting your team to convert overlaps in the oppo 22…

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:43 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:37 am

Crash Hamster wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:32 am Genge is talking tripe.

If the opposition have a goal line drop out, England have to run the ball back from half way, giving the same number of jackaling opportunities, but nearer the England try line.

Also, it's about time that England adopted a 'we are England and we'll score one more than you' approach, especially against a side who have never beaten us.

We're wasting a generation of very talented backs based on trying to play 'old style England' 10 man rugby. It's tedious and no-one in position to change it seems to have the slightest inclination to.

Bang on. This is especially true when we've got one of the best crops of flankers in my time of watching rugby - if we don't believe we can hold onto our own ball now, then what the point even is there in playing rugby?

I'm hopeful that this is temporary and Borthwick's doing what he did with Leicester - heavily restricting what we do and adding in an extra thing every game when we've got it right. You saw it with practically no mauls in the Scotland game and then adding them in for Italy. I'm hoping the Wales game will come with the extra content of "holding onto the fucking ball."

Puja

Layering on new bits is standard fare for any new coach, and attack is always the last layer, but not trusting your team to convert overlaps in the oppo 22…

I mean, it is Farrell, so it's probably sound tactics...

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:46 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:43 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:37 am

Bang on. This is especially true when we've got one of the best crops of flankers in my time of watching rugby - if we don't believe we can hold onto our own ball now, then what the point even is there in playing rugby?

I'm hopeful that this is temporary and Borthwick's doing what he did with Leicester - heavily restricting what we do and adding in an extra thing every game when we've got it right. You saw it with practically no mauls in the Scotland game and then adding them in for Italy. I'm hoping the Wales game will come with the extra content of "holding onto the fucking ball."

Puja

Layering on new bits is standard fare for any new coach, and attack is always the last layer, but not trusting your team to convert overlaps in the oppo 22…

I mean, it is Farrell, so it's probably sound tactics...

Puja

Ha! Fair.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:46 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:43 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:37 am

Bang on. This is especially true when we've got one of the best crops of flankers in my time of watching rugby - if we don't believe we can hold onto our own ball now, then what the point even is there in playing rugby?

I'm hopeful that this is temporary and Borthwick's doing what he did with Leicester - heavily restricting what we do and adding in an extra thing every game when we've got it right. You saw it with practically no mauls in the Scotland game and then adding them in for Italy. I'm hoping the Wales game will come with the extra content of "holding onto the fucking ball."

Puja

Layering on new bits is standard fare for any new coach, and attack is always the last layer, but not trusting your team to convert overlaps in the oppo 22…

I mean, it is Farrell, so it's probably sound tactics...

Puja

Raises the question of if we can't convert possession to points because we're kicking or we're kicking because we can't convert possession into points.

"You can do either [run the ball or kick], but let’s try to be good at one of them.”

That's the issue surely - the aim has got to be being good at both so we aren't predictable. In the article, you can see only two of the fours kicks were defendable decisions (the grubber to Malins and cross-field to Steward) and both are thwarted because the defence is ready for them.

I personally don't think you can blame the coaches for this (unless they are truly only aiming to only be good at kicking to create pressure) - I severely doubt the instruction was to kick every time you are in the opposition 22 regardless of overlaps, etc. The kicks to George and the last one are simply a robotic player lacking the creativity to execute.

Crash Hamster wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:32 am Genge is talking tripe.

If the opposition have a goal line drop out, England have to run the ball back from half way, giving the same number of jackaling opportunities, but nearer the England try line.

Not really. Ireland ran a set play off of a French goal line drop out to score a try at the weekend. It's actually a really good chance to realign the attack and set your big carriers up to carry. the opposition have to both chase the kick and cover the backfield as they are further from the line now so there's not as many players in the defensive line.

Not that I want to see us kick away good attacking ball instead of playing what we see but at times when we have lost shape and under pressure I have no problem going for the grubber tactic.

A grubber is a good tactic, for a player to run onto. Similar to a pass. Sadly our grubber kicks are as useful as a pass to the bloke wearing a daffodil hat in row D

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:53 pm Not that I want to see us kick away good attacking ball instead of playing what we see but at times when we have lost shape and under pressure I have no problem going for the grubber tactic.

I’m sure nobody has a problem with that but that’s not what is happening. We are repeatedly kicking away good ball.

What are we producing pressure for if not to create a scoring opportunities? Surely kicking it over and over again doesn't help.

p/d wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:22 pm A grubber is a good tactic, for a player to run onto. Similar to a pass. Sadly our grubber kicks are as useful as a pass to the bloke wearing a daffodil hat in row D

But just think, one day row d will one day be purged of daffodils.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:26 pm What are we producing pressure for if not to create a scoring opportunities? Surely kicking it over and over again doesn't help.

We used to speculate that constant kicking would change when Farrell stopped playing/Eddie departed. Trouble is Farrell looks a fixture until he's pension-eligible while the new coach appears to favour the same kicking policy.

So as Basil Fawlty said, we're stuck with it. All very depressing.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:26 pm What are we producing pressure for if not to create a scoring opportunities? Surely kicking it over and over again doesn't help.

Well when applied properly (which clearly we haven't always been doing) the grubber is either a chance to score or forces a hurried clearance maybe the chance to take man and ball over the try line and get a 5m scrum. Even a set clearance or goal line drop out gives a good chance to realign the attack and get your best carriers in position.

So the kicking option isn't necessarily a bad option and going to it with a bit of regularity does tend to force the opposition back three to drop back whereas close to their own try line they'd normally be advancing with the rest of the defensive line. In theory that could help find a little bit of space.

Issue is we have a fixation with kicking whilst we're on the front foot (a hallmark of Evans strategy at Quins) but combined with kicking it away if we don't score immediately (a hallmark of the Eddie Jones era). That's not a combination that's working for us currently we need more balance and patience.

And Dombrandt not far behind + more rucks hit. Pretty good for a fat, lazy...

Stom wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:39 pm And Dombrandt not far behind + more rucks hit. Pretty good for a fat, lazy...

That may just have been why I posted it…

Yeah I haven't been disappointed by Dombrandt's work rate. The amount of minutes he can keep it up for and his inability to combine with the other players to make one of the big breaks he does for Quins are the areas he needs to improve.

I think he's done enough to earn the shirt until the end of the competition.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:20 am Yeah I haven't been disappointed by Dombrandt's work rate. The amount of minutes he can keep it up for and his inability to combine with the other players to make one of the big breaks he does for Quins are the areas he needs to improve.

I think he's done enough to earn the shirt until the end of the competition.

Does anyone make carries off 10? As Farrell is a roadblock...

Dombrandt's problem isn't his ability to combine with others, it's Captain 33%

Stom wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:14 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:20 am Yeah I haven't been disappointed by Dombrandt's work rate. The amount of minutes he can keep it up for and his inability to combine with the other players to make one of the big breaks he does for Quins are the areas he needs to improve.

I think he's done enough to earn the shirt until the end of the competition.

Does anyone make carries off 10? As Farrell is a roadblock...

Dombrandt's problem isn't his ability to combine with others, it's Captain 33%

I'm not saying captain roadblock isn't an issue but he's overrun passes from other players and managed to combine only once with Smith Vs Scotland.