RugbyRebels

Blimey. I hope* you lot are suddenly made redundant into a restricted market where 90% of your potential employers are completely skint and the other 10% can’t spend as much as they’d like because of a salary cap, and then a few months later you’re told that as you managed to find a short term contract way under your market value you will be penalised if you try to maximise your earnings because we’re trying to protect a cartel that just screwed you over. Let Jack eat cake!
If letting J Willy playing another couple of seasons in France kills the Prem and/or the England team then we have far bigger problems than letting him stay in Toulouse.

*I don’t really

That all presumes Willis hasn't had a decent (albeit not French money) offer from an English club for next season. I'd be shocked if that was the case, even in the current climate.

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:56 am That all presumes Willis hasn't had a decent (albeit not French money) offer from an English club for next season. I'd be shocked if that was the case, even in the current climate.

It does but until we know for sure… and I’d like it to be good, not decent, offers from 2/3/4 clubs before deciding he’s making his own bed, which I find highly unlikely. Even if he has had one decent offer from an English club he’s still suffering from the redundancy compared to if he were negotiating whilst under contract at Wasps.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:11 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:50 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:57 am I don’t remember Itoje and Farrell being made redundant, particularly during a time when clubs are so cash strapped.

He isn't redundant though? He has a job.

He has also just chosen to sign a contract that would make him (or anybody else) ineligible for selection.

The ramifications of the redundancy run beyond the signing of a temporary contract signed in extremis. We obviously won’t agree.

Yeah that’s totally fair if you don’t want to continue this pointless argument. I was just trying to understand why it is different to (for example) Mercer, other than the amount of time he had to agree a contract?

There are presumably plenty of England players (or hopefuls) out of contract in a period where the offers on the table aren’t what they would have hoped for, or what they could get in France.

If Lawrence (or Hill or Barbeary) had turned down his contract extension offer from Bath to go to France and still wanted to play for England would that be fair?

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:30 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:11 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:50 am

He isn't redundant though? He has a job.

He has also just chosen to sign a contract that would make him (or anybody else) ineligible for selection.

The ramifications of the redundancy run beyond the signing of a temporary contract signed in extremis. We obviously won’t agree.

I was just trying to understand why it is different to (for example) Mercer, other than the amount of time he had to agree a contract?

I think that’s one of the issues. He was caught unawares by the redundancy and has taken a way below par short term contract in extremis and he’s now got to negotiate from a position of weakness having lost 75% (complete guess) of this years salary in a really depressed market. If Wasps were still going he could be earning, and this is all for illustration purposes as I have no idea, £250k a year for the three year duration of his contract, and will have made financial decisions based on that, but he’s now earning £50k in France this season and then £150k for Bristol for the next couple of seasons. Come 2025 he’s £400k down.
I just feel incredibly sorry for them all and I think the game/PRL/RFU should be looking after them not continuing on with the status quo when the landscape is so radically different.
If Lawrence, Hill or any other ex-Wasps or Wuss wants to take their next contract in France I’d let them and tell them could still be picked by Slippery Butterfingers.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:16 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:30 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:11 am
The ramifications of the redundancy run beyond the signing of a temporary contract signed in extremis. We obviously won’t agree.

I was just trying to understand why it is different to (for example) Mercer, other than the amount of time he had to agree a contract?

I think that’s one of the issues. He was caught unawares by the redundancy and has taken a way below par short term contract in extremis and he’s now got to negotiate from a position of weakness having lost 75% (complete guess) of this years salary in a really depressed market. If Wasps were still going he could be earning, and this is all for illustration purposes as I have no idea, £250k a year for the three year duration of his contract, and will have made financial decisions based on that, but he’s now earning £50k in France this season and then £150k for Bristol for the next couple of seasons. Come 2025 he’s £400k down.
I just feel incredibly sorry for them all and I think the game/PRL/RFU should be looking after them not continuing on with the status quo when the landscape is so radically different.
If Lawrence, Hill or any other ex-Wasps or Wuss wants to take their next contract in France I’d let them and tell them could still be picked by Slippery Butterfingers.

Well. Fair enough.

I know they’re guesses at the figures but it does make more sense from that perspective. Maybe I’m underestimating the effect of the bargaining power already being on a decent wage. I suppose it felt different because you can’t picture any club not wanting Jack Willis, or wanting to let their rivals have him, but I really couldn’t guess as to how the finances work.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:11 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:16 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:30 pm

I was just trying to understand why it is different to (for example) Mercer, other than the amount of time he had to agree a contract?

I think that’s one of the issues. He was caught unawares by the redundancy and has taken a way below par short term contract in extremis and he’s now got to negotiate from a position of weakness having lost 75% (complete guess) of this years salary in a really depressed market. If Wasps were still going he could be earning, and this is all for illustration purposes as I have no idea, £250k a year for the three year duration of his contract, and will have made financial decisions based on that, but he’s now earning £50k in France this season and then £150k for Bristol for the next couple of seasons. Come 2025 he’s £400k down.
I just feel incredibly sorry for them all and I think the game/PRL/RFU should be looking after them not continuing on with the status quo when the landscape is so radically different.
If Lawrence, Hill or any other ex-Wasps or Wuss wants to take their next contract in France I’d let them and tell them could still be picked by Slippery Butterfingers.

Well. Fair enough.

I know they’re guesses at the figures but it does make more sense from that perspective. Maybe I’m underestimating the effect of the bargaining power already being on a decent wage. I suppose it felt different because you can picture any club not wanting Jack Willis, or wanting to let their rivals have him.

I could have it completely wrong and he’s not that much down but it’s difficult to think he’ll even be close to breaking even. It could also be that he was out of contract at the end of this season anyway and would’ve been seeking a contract in this market regardless but he must still be down six figures on this season alone.

LCD’s injury looks like a predictive nightmare. Could be back by the end of the season or could miss the RWC. Move to Montpellier still on, though. All according to Baxter.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:56 pm

LCD’s injury looks like a predictive nightmare. Could be back by the end of the season or could miss the RWC. Move to Montpellier still on, though. All according to Baxter.

Predictive? Predictable?

The (non) use of Walker was already bugging me and now that LCD is out it looks even more naive.

Dunn/Blamire need to show something they haven’t been or we’re relying on George trudging through an entire World Cup. He wasn’t bad but he hardly looked full of energy.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:46 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:56 pm

LCD’s injury looks like a predictive nightmare. Could be back by the end of the season or could miss the RWC. Move to Montpellier still on, though. All according to Baxter.

Predictive? Predictable?

The (non) use of Walker was already bugging me and now that LCD is out it looks even more naive.

Dunn/Blamire need to show something they haven’t been or we’re relying on George trudging through an entire World Cup. He wasn’t bad but he hardly looked full of energy.

Predictive as it seems like it’s impossible to predict when LCD will be back.
George is one of my favourite players but he is on the red runs of the downward slope.

Might Willis being available for this RWC, then going to France for, say, two years before returning to an English club for the next RWC do his playing standards (and therefore England in the medium term) a lot of good?

I float that as a possibility only. BUT, should that be a real working hypothesis, might it appeal to, say, ten or a dozen more of the England squad?

In development terms, with younger replacements getting premiership game time as a result - to then compete with those returning players after two years, might England's overall standards actually improve at that point over what would otherwise have been achieved?

The downside, of course, is reduced interim standards in the 6N, European club competitions and the premiership.

We have to accept that the salary cap, the overall financial situation and the presence of too many overseas players is currently holding the game back. Leicester paying Pollard big money and leaving Atkinson on the bench is an example of twisted standards. Maybe, there needs to be some enlightened thinking outside the box. I'm normally against players in France being available for England but I think that rule should be lifted as long as there is a salary cap. I'd also have some sort of rule (if there is a salary cap) restricting the percentage of the salary bill for non-EQ players (5% perhaps?). Existing contracts could be honoured but new ones would be restricted.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:11 am We have to accept that the salary cap, the overall financial situation and the presence of too many overseas players is currently holding the game back. Leicester paying Pollard big money and leaving Atkinson on the bench is an example of twisted standards.

Weird example - Pollard was signed for 2 seasons to replace the loss of Ford, then CAtkinson only came in much later after the demise of Wasps. Not like we signed someone over the top of Atkinson.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:02 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:11 am We have to accept that the salary cap, the overall financial situation and the presence of too many overseas players is currently holding the game back. Leicester paying Pollard big money and leaving Atkinson on the bench is an example of twisted standards.

Weird example - Pollard was signed for 2 seasons to replace the loss of Ford, then CAtkinson only came in much later after the demise of Wasps. Not like we signed someone over the top of Atkinson.

Puja

Fair comment, up to a point! The fact is that in financially difficult times etc. etc. Leicester ARE paying big money to a non-EQP AND Atkinson is not getting game time. Whatever the background circumstances, that is NOW the situation. Within such scenarios where salaries are NOT available to EQPs, I cannot accept that players moving to France should be excluded, much as I am in favour of it in principle.

The RFU must be concerned about three successive poor 6Ns. It could be going to get worse if something doesn't change. There are other options being mentioned: central contracts, revised academies, regions, RFU ownership etc. Most are wacky or impractical. All I hope is that the debate leads to a solution.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:46 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:02 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:11 am We have to accept that the salary cap, the overall financial situation and the presence of too many overseas players is currently holding the game back. Leicester paying Pollard big money and leaving Atkinson on the bench is an example of twisted standards.

Weird example - Pollard was signed for 2 seasons to replace the loss of Ford, then CAtkinson only came in much later after the demise of Wasps. Not like we signed someone over the top of Atkinson.

Puja

Fair comment, up to a point! The fact is that in financially difficult times etc. etc. Leicester ARE paying big money to a non-EQP AND Atkinson is not getting game time. Whatever the background circumstances, that is NOW the situation. Within such scenarios where salaries are NOT available to EQPs, I cannot accept that players moving to France should be excluded, much as I am in favour of it in principle.

The RFU must be concerned about three successive poor 6Ns. It could be going to get worse if something doesn't change. There are other options being mentioned: central contracts, revised academies, regions, RFU ownership etc. Most are wacky or impractical. All I hope is that the debate leads to a solution.

Rule number one- never criticise Tigers or signings. They are always good.

On a serious note, our game is an a parlous state (and I don't mean the country we live in).

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:46 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:02 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:11 am We have to accept that the salary cap, the overall financial situation and the presence of too many overseas players is currently holding the game back. Leicester paying Pollard big money and leaving Atkinson on the bench is an example of twisted standards.

Weird example - Pollard was signed for 2 seasons to replace the loss of Ford, then CAtkinson only came in much later after the demise of Wasps. Not like we signed someone over the top of Atkinson.

Puja

Fair comment, up to a point! The fact is that in financially difficult times etc. etc. Leicester ARE paying big money to a non-EQP AND Atkinson is not getting game time. Whatever the background circumstances, that is NOW the situation. Within such scenarios where salaries are NOT available to EQPs, I cannot accept that players moving to France should be excluded, much as I am in favour of it in principle.

The RFU must be concerned about three successive poor 6Ns. It could be going to get worse if something doesn't change. There are other options being mentioned: central contracts, revised academies, regions, RFU ownership etc. Most are wacky or impractical. All I hope is that the debate leads to a solution.

The signing of Atkinson has been unfortunate to say the least. The lad was really starting to motor when Wasps disappeared. My heart sunk when I saw Tigers had signed him, was clear that he would have to play second fiddle to Pollard. Has Atkinson extended his contract or could someone else come in for him?

Beasties wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:01 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:46 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:02 pm

Weird example - Pollard was signed for 2 seasons to replace the loss of Ford, then CAtkinson only came in much later after the demise of Wasps. Not like we signed someone over the top of Atkinson.

Puja

Fair comment, up to a point! The fact is that in financially difficult times etc. etc. Leicester ARE paying big money to a non-EQP AND Atkinson is not getting game time. Whatever the background circumstances, that is NOW the situation. Within such scenarios where salaries are NOT available to EQPs, I cannot accept that players moving to France should be excluded, much as I am in favour of it in principle.

The RFU must be concerned about three successive poor 6Ns. It could be going to get worse if something doesn't change. There are other options being mentioned: central contracts, revised academies, regions, RFU ownership etc. Most are wacky or impractical. All I hope is that the debate leads to a solution.

The signing of Atkinson has been unfortunate to say the least. The lad was really starting to motor when Wasps disappeared. My heart sunk when I saw Tigers had signed him, was clear that he would have to play second fiddle to Pollard. Has Atkinson extended his contract or could someone else come in for him?

It was described as a "long-term" signing when it happened. It's great for Leicester and possibly long-term great for him in a Cole vs Castro/George vs Smit kind of way - he may benefit more from having to train with and improve enough to get past an experienced international, rather than just being handed a starting shirt without having to fight for it - however from an England perspective I really would prefer him getting a lot more gametime than he's currently receiving.

Puja

Somewhat immaterial. England aren't going to look at him pre world cup and he'll get plenty of game time next season. The issue for Atkinson is if Pollard then signs an extension and is looking to stay at Tigers in the long term.

He should hopefully be picking up a lot of information from Pollard who's been on fire recently.

Plenty of evidence that Tigers know what they’re doing when it comes to developing young, English talent. I’m sure they’ll do right by Atkinson.

Nor do I think we should be wishing away the likes of Pollard, one of the few top class foreign players playing in the league at the moment.

And there’s plenty of English 10’s starting every week in the league.

Timbo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:09 pm Plenty of evidence that Tigers know what they’re doing when it comes to developing young, English talent. I’m sure they’ll do right by Atkinson.

Nor do I think we should be wishing away the likes of Pollard, one of the few top class foreign players playing in the league at the moment.

And there’s plenty of English 10’s starting every week in the league.

well...a deal of recent evidence, combined with a pensioner penchant.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:12 pm

Timbo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:09 pm Plenty of evidence that Tigers know what they’re doing when it comes to developing young, English talent. I’m sure they’ll do right by Atkinson.

Nor do I think we should be wishing away the likes of Pollard, one of the few top class foreign players playing in the league at the moment.

And there’s plenty of English 10’s starting every week in the league.

well...a deal of recent evidence, combined with a pensioner penchant.

Depends how many years you're going back as recent. Generally we've done very well over the last three/four years. Going back a bit before that it was less good.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:55 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:12 pm

Timbo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:09 pm Plenty of evidence that Tigers know what they’re doing when it comes to developing young, English talent. I’m sure they’ll do right by Atkinson.

Nor do I think we should be wishing away the likes of Pollard, one of the few top class foreign players playing in the league at the moment.

And there’s plenty of English 10’s starting every week in the league.

well...a deal of recent evidence, combined with a pensioner penchant.

Depends how many years you're going back as recent. Generally we've done very well over the last three/four years. Going back a bit before that it was less good.

What do you think is recent- I’m agreeing with you if that helps. But obviously development isn’t short term. Less good is kind- and a missed opportunity

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:06 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:55 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:12 pm

well...a deal of recent evidence, combined with a pensioner penchant.

Depends how many years you're going back as recent. Generally we've done very well over the last three/four years. Going back a bit before that it was less good.

What do you think is recent- I’m agreeing with you if that helps. But obviously development isn’t short term. Less good is kind- and a missed opportunity

There was a big rebuild of the academy system 5 to 6 years ago and then it took a little while for things to take effect. Before that it was a bit of a shit show. A good player occasionally emerged from it but generally they'd only be the one. I did know a player who was playing age grade county who went there for the academy trials. There for a week and the only question asked by Troy Thacker (who was sacked as part of the rebuild) was "what school do you go to". A state school was apparently the wrong the answer and he ended up taking a Rugby League academy contract. Thankfully we've stopped being so obsessed with schools now.

Short term is normally 1-2 years, medium 3-5 and long term 5+.

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:11 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:06 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:55 pm

Depends how many years you're going back as recent. Generally we've done very well over the last three/four years. Going back a bit before that it was less good.

What do you think is recent- I’m agreeing with you if that helps. But obviously development isn’t short term. Less good is kind- and a missed opportunity

Short term is normally 1-2 years, medium 3-5 and long term 5+.

Lol. Is that an official definition?

Billy V out for rest of season after knee injury

Keeping this here for a week in case anyone wants to wax nostalgic about posts from 2016, then it's getting deleted to try and reduce stress on the board software.

Puja