Snap General Election called

[Sandydragon]

What? I think you'll find that the blame for the deaths is rarely directly stated in the news, primarily because the majority of the deaths are not caused by the government security forces. The Western media only insinuates that the government is responsible for the deaths. Happy to be proved wrong if you can find evidence to support your assertion...

My bad, the honest government forces are only killing a smaller number, so it's all okay.

It's not okay. There's a lot of violence because of the crisis. But I do not see that the government is acting that much differently compared to how Western governments or Western-allied governments would if faced with a similar crisis and similar levels of extreme criminality.

What? You mean bypassing the legitimate institutions and setting up nice compliant ones? Venezuela is becoming a totalitarian state. Amazing that some people still defend this.

[Sandydragon]

It's almost as if some Western economies are deliberately destabilising the region in order to exploit mineral assets that don't belong to them. Shirley, there's no precedent for that tactic.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Are people dying from starvation? There is possibly a food crisis and shortage, but it's being managed and there are handouts. People are starving in Africa as a result of capitalism. You'll not see comparable images coming out of Venezuela. I saw a video the other day of a Venezuelan complaining about lack of food... he looked very well nourished. In this recent report about food crises, Venezuela is not listed... so it seems to me that this narrative around starvation is just that... a conjured propaganda narrative that grossly exaggerates the situation regarding food insecurity.
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ses_v1.pdf

A lot of the protests are due to shortages of specific items, which cause a lot of distress when they are unavailable... things like napies, toilet paper etc. The sort of things that people really need... but there is no extreme food shortage. There is food distributed by the government... and you know what, the opposition gangs go around setting fire to the warehouses because the shortages and protests around those shortages further their aims to destabilise the government. Or they smuggle the subsidised food and other goods to neighbouring countries to sell at a profit.

And what's more... it is highly likely that the US is at play with covert actions at the least advising or training key members of these gangs. Obviously anything regarding a secret agency is speculation to some degree, but I would think the probability is high.

The worst famine crisis in Africa was down to the actions of a nice left wing government, but let's not prevent any facts from getting in the way of an assertion.

And of course there is the need to blame the CIA. But of course those anti government freedom fighters in eastern Ukraine aren't inspired by Moscow? Good t see the RT propaganda is working.

[kk67]

Having read up on the economic policy of Venezuela, it seems very solid, despite recent inflation. I understand now why Goldman Sachs is buying up the cheap debt!!

It's almost as if some Western economies are deliberately destabilising the region in order to exploit mineral assets that don't belong to them. Shirley, there's no precedent for that tactic.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Correct. The consequence is what we occasionally term: WAR.
People die. It's bad.

[Digby]

It's almost as if some Western economies are deliberately destabilising the region in order to exploit mineral assets that don't belong to them. Shirley, there's no precedent for that tactic.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Correct. The consequence is what we occasionally term: WAR.
People die. It's bad.

More of a deflection than a defence

[kk67]

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Correct. The consequence is what we occasionally term: WAR.
People die. It's bad.

More of a deflection than a defence

Really..?. That's your best...?

[Zhivago]

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Are people dying from starvation? There is possibly a food crisis and shortage, but it's being managed and there are handouts. People are starving in Africa as a result of capitalism. You'll not see comparable images coming out of Venezuela. I saw a video the other day of a Venezuelan complaining about lack of food... he looked very well nourished. In this recent report about food crises, Venezuela is not listed... so it seems to me that this narrative around starvation is just that... a conjured propaganda narrative that grossly exaggerates the situation regarding food insecurity.
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ses_v1.pdf

A lot of the protests are due to shortages of specific items, which cause a lot of distress when they are unavailable... things like napies, toilet paper etc. The sort of things that people really need... but there is no extreme food shortage. There is food distributed by the government... and you know what, the opposition gangs go around setting fire to the warehouses because the shortages and protests around those shortages further their aims to destabilise the government. Or they smuggle the subsidised food and other goods to neighbouring countries to sell at a profit.

And what's more... it is highly likely that the US is at play with covert actions at the least advising or training key members of these gangs. Obviously anything regarding a secret agency is speculation to some degree, but I would think the probability is high.

The worst famine crisis in Africa was down to the actions of a nice left wing government, but let's not prevent any facts from getting in the way of an assertion.

And of course there is the need to blame the CIA. But of course those anti government freedom fighters in eastern Ukraine aren't inspired by Moscow? Good t see the RT propaganda is working.

You miss my point I think. Famines and food insecurity are not due to left or right politics per se. There are politics on both sides of the spectrum that can have either positive or deleterious effects in terms of food security. I object to cherry picking this one occassion where there is food insecurity and exagerrating it to say 'See Socialism is EVIL!!". It's ludicrous.

Not sure why you're bringing Ukraine into this, but those fighters are clearly Russian proxies and I've never stated otherwise. I don't read RT.

[Sandydragon]

Some food for thought.


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 30120.html

[Digby]

Are people dying from starvation? There is possibly a food crisis and shortage, but it's being managed and there are handouts. People are starving in Africa as a result of capitalism. You'll not see comparable images coming out of Venezuela. I saw a video the other day of a Venezuelan complaining about lack of food... he looked very well nourished. In this recent report about food crises, Venezuela is not listed... so it seems to me that this narrative around starvation is just that... a conjured propaganda narrative that grossly exaggerates the situation regarding food insecurity.
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ses_v1.pdf

A lot of the protests are due to shortages of specific items, which cause a lot of distress when they are unavailable... things like napies, toilet paper etc. The sort of things that people really need... but there is no extreme food shortage. There is food distributed by the government... and you know what, the opposition gangs go around setting fire to the warehouses because the shortages and protests around those shortages further their aims to destabilise the government. Or they smuggle the subsidised food and other goods to neighbouring countries to sell at a profit.

And what's more... it is highly likely that the US is at play with covert actions at the least advising or training key members of these gangs. Obviously anything regarding a secret agency is speculation to some degree, but I would think the probability is high.

The worst famine crisis in Africa was down to the actions of a nice left wing government, but let's not prevent any facts from getting in the way of an assertion.

And of course there is the need to blame the CIA. But of course those anti government freedom fighters in eastern Ukraine aren't inspired by Moscow? Good t see the RT propaganda is working.

You miss my point I think. Famines and food insecurity are not due to left or right politics per se. There are politics on both sides of the spectrum that can have either positive or deleterious effects in terms of food security. I object to cherry picking this one occassion where there is food insecurity and exagerrating it to say 'See Socialism is EVIL!!". It's ludicrous.

Not sure why you're bringing Ukraine into this, but those fighters are clearly Russian proxies and I've never stated otherwise. I don't read RT.

I don't think I said look at this situation it's evil due to Socialism.

Of Venezuela the situation is evil, as one tends to find with dictatorships. And in separate comment there's no example of a successful Socialist state, which might in fairness only mean yet, although the idea does seem to run afoul when confronted by human nature.

[Zhivago]

Some food for thought.


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 30120.html

Not particularly insightful.

"The government is also running out of cash. According to the Central Bank of Venezuela, the country has $10.4bn in foreign reserves left, and it is estimated to have a debt of $7.2bn. "

This doesn't make sense. So, it has debts of $7.2bn and $10.4bn in savings? It's bullshit. The debt is obviously a lot more than that, and foreign reserves aren't for settling debt.

It does have a tricky situation regarding its debt. Because the US has cut it off from US money markets with stringent sanctions. It's so obvious that US is targetting regime change, and is doing so because the oil price drop makes it an opportune time to do so. US is the enemy of left wing countries.

[Digby]

I see Jacob Rees-Mogg continues to destroy his chances of being made party leader. That mayn't have ever been a realistic ambition, but post his support for children arising from rape/incest no matter the mother's wishes/age he's dropped the ball again with his comments on food banks. I can't think of anyone offhand who's done so much to derail their chances quite as quickly, tbh I thought his dubious science on climate change would do for his chances but he's moved to ensure it never gets that far.

And it is odd as whilst he might never have been Tory party leader he'd surely love the job of Speaker of the House of Commons, and he must have done real damage to those chances.

[Zhivago]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 54511.html

[kk67]

And it is odd as whilst he might never have been Tory party leader he'd surely love the job of Speaker of the House of Commons, and he must have done real damage to those chances.

It's just a game to these Eton spivs. It's all about the ego.
They will be remembered as crooks.

[canta_brian]

It's odd that in this day and age we still seem to want to vote to be ruled by the exact same classes as have ruled the country for generations. A place in parliament used to be based on who your family was. Now it seems based in doing the right course at the right university, which seems based on going to the right school, which is based on cost, which is based to a large extent in who your family is.

It's no wonder we end up with daft pricks like Mr Johnson.

[Digby]

And it is odd as whilst he might never have been Tory party leader he'd surely love the job of Speaker of the House of Commons, and he must have done real damage to those chances.

It's just a game to these Eton spivs. It's all about the ego.
They will be remembered as crooks.

I don't remotely get that impression from Rees-Mogg, I mayn't agree with a lot of his thinking, I may even rather dislike a lot of it. But I wouldn't conclude he's not truly trying to do what he thinks best for the country, not even if one might want to conclude a person who's never changed a nappy in the process of having 6 children hasn't got a sodding clue

[Zhivago]

It's odd that in this day and age we still seem to want to vote to be ruled by the exact same classes as have ruled the country for generations. A place in parliament used to be based on who your family was. Now it seems based in doing the right course at the right university, which seems based on going to the right school, which is based on cost, which is based to a large extent in who your family is.

It's no wonder we end up with daft pricks like Mr Johnson.

The education of leaders is interesting. There was a map I saw on reddit showing the education of all the world's leaders. Fascinating.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-the ... ed-2013-12

[canta_brian]

Saw this, just lol.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/go ... ction-says

"In a surprise admission, the Prime Minister said the Tories were were caught off-guard by the early vote which led to an overly-centralised campaign and a disconnect with local constituency campaigners."

Is May quickly becoming the UK's worst PM ever? Perfect timing really. It's not like there is anything of note occurring in world politics right now.

[Zhivago]

Saw this, just lol.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/go ... ction-says

"In a surprise admission, the Prime Minister said the Tories were were caught off-guard by the early vote which led to an overly-centralised campaign and a disconnect with local constituency campaigners."

Is May quickly becoming the UK's worst PM ever? Perfect timing really. It's not like there is anything of note occurring in world politics right now.

She's also recently said that there wasn't enough debate during the election...

[Mellsblue]

Yet she still won the election. She's certainly no worse than Brown and can certainly claim a bigger mandate.

By debate she meant general debate rather than specifically the leaders' debates The consensus within the Conservatives is that Corbyn was so underestimated that not enough time was spent on attacking his/Labour's policies during the campaign and forcing a debate in the media/public domain. They thought most would not take him seriously. That he started backing away from promises made when challenged after the election would show that it's a valid point.

[canta_brian]

Yet she still won the election. She's certainly no worse than Brown and can certainly claim a bigger mandate.

By debate she meant general debate rather than specifically the leaders' debates The consensus within the Conservatives is that Corbyn was so underestimated that not enough time was spent on attacking his/Labour's policies during the campaign and forcing a debate in the media/public domain. They thought most would not take him seriously. That he started backing away from promises made when challenged after the election would show that it's a valid point.

[Mellsblue]

Yet she still won the election. She's certainly no worse than Brown and can certainly claim a bigger mandate.

By debate she meant general debate rather than specifically the leaders' debates The consensus within the Conservatives is that Corbyn was so underestimated that not enough time was spent on attacking his/Labour's policies during the campaign and forcing a debate in the media/public domain. They thought most would not take him seriously. That he started backing away from promises made when challenged after the election would show that it's a valid point.

Yeah, that's not what she meant by debate, either.

[Sandydragon]

It's odd that in this day and age we still seem to want to vote to be ruled by the exact same classes as have ruled the country for generations. A place in parliament used to be based on who your family was. Now it seems based in doing the right course at the right university, which seems based on going to the right school, which is based on cost, which is based to a large extent in who your family is.

It's no wonder we end up with daft pricks like Mr Johnson.

The education of leaders is interesting. There was a map I saw on reddit showing the education of all the world's leaders. Fascinating.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-the ... ed-2013-12

Changed from a significant period in the 20th century where children from poorer backgrounds did well in politics, thanks to good education.

[Sandydragon]

And if you think that May is bad, the n the favourite amongst the Conservative party membership for a new leader is Boris.

[Sandydragon]

Some food for thought.


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 30120.html

Not particularly insightful.

"The government is also running out of cash. According to the Central Bank of Venezuela, the country has $10.4bn in foreign reserves left, and it is estimated to have a debt of $7.2bn. "

This doesn't make sense. So, it has debts of $7.2bn and $10.4bn in savings? It's bullshit. The debt is obviously a lot more than that, and foreign reserves aren't for settling debt.

It does have a tricky situation regarding its debt. Because the US has cut it off from US money markets with stringent sanctions. It's so obvious that US is targetting regime change, and is doing so because the oil price drop makes it an opportune time to do so. US is the enemy of left wing countries.

So after a decade of slagging off the US, the Venezuelan government expects Washington to play nicely? That’s some anti American policies and sound bytes coming back to hurt them, together with some terrible economic policies (should we mention the attempts at price control and huge inflation) and a surge towards totalitarianism in dealing with dissent.

The only bit that doesn’t make sense is the belief held by some that we should emulate Venezuela in some way.

[Zhivago]

Some food for thought.


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 30120.html

Not particularly insightful.

"The government is also running out of cash. According to the Central Bank of Venezuela, the country has $10.4bn in foreign reserves left, and it is estimated to have a debt of $7.2bn. "

This doesn't make sense. So, it has debts of $7.2bn and $10.4bn in savings? It's bullshit. The debt is obviously a lot more than that, and foreign reserves aren't for settling debt.

It does have a tricky situation regarding its debt. Because the US has cut it off from US money markets with stringent sanctions. It's so obvious that US is targetting regime change, and is doing so because the oil price drop makes it an opportune time to do so. US is the enemy of left wing countries.

So after a decade of slagging off the US, the Venezuelan government expects Washington to play nicely? That’s some anti American policies and sound bytes coming back to hurt them, together with some terrible economic policies (should we mention the attempts at price control and huge inflation) and a surge towards totalitarianism in dealing with dissent.

The only bit that doesn’t make sense is the belief held by some that we should emulate Venezuela in some way.

I can't see any comparisons between us and Venezuela. Our economies are completely different.

[Stones of granite]

Not particularly insightful.

"The government is also running out of cash. According to the Central Bank of Venezuela, the country has $10.4bn in foreign reserves left, and it is estimated to have a debt of $7.2bn. "

This doesn't make sense. So, it has debts of $7.2bn and $10.4bn in savings? It's bullshit. The debt is obviously a lot more than that, and foreign reserves aren't for settling debt.

It does have a tricky situation regarding its debt. Because the US has cut it off from US money markets with stringent sanctions. It's so obvious that US is targetting regime change, and is doing so because the oil price drop makes it an opportune time to do so. US is the enemy of left wing countries.

So after a decade of slagging off the US, the Venezuelan government expects Washington to play nicely? That’s some anti American policies and sound bytes coming back to hurt them, together with some terrible economic policies (should we mention the attempts at price control and huge inflation) and a surge towards totalitarianism in dealing with dissent.

The only bit that doesn’t make sense is the belief held by some that we should emulate Venezuela in some way.

I can't see any comparisons between us and Venezuela. Our economies are completely different.

Perhaps you could elucidate.