RugbyRebels

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:Coming quick on the heels of Labour confirming their assurances they'd clear student debt actually meant they didn't know how big the debt was and they wouldn't do any such thing the team of all the talents surrounding Labour's Glorious Leader™ are busy now deleting previous posts praising Venezuela for showing that wealth can be shared and the poor matter, this after Venezuela spent the weekend killing some poor people and approving a more totalitarian approach.

You think? There's still plenty who regard Chavez's model as the one to aim for; its all just gone a bit wrong. The really sad thing is that unlike many countries where socialism has been tried and failed, which have few natural resources and might have failed anyway, Venezuela has one of the most profitable natural resources going and its current problems are largely self inflicted.

Venezuela doesn't have the most profitable natural resources. Their oil is of a very low quality which means there are more processing costs such that it needs a high oil price in order to be profitable.

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:Coming quick on the heels of Labour confirming their assurances they'd clear student debt actually meant they didn't know how big the debt was and they wouldn't do any such thing the team of all the talents surrounding Labour's Glorious Leader™ are busy now deleting previous posts praising Venezuela for showing that wealth can be shared and the poor matter, this after Venezuela spent the weekend killing some poor people and approving a more totalitarian approach.

You think? There's still plenty who regard Chavez's model as the one to aim for; its all just gone a bit wrong. The really sad thing is that unlike many countries where socialism has been tried and failed, which have few natural resources and might have failed anyway, Venezuela has one of the most profitable natural resources going and its current problems are largely self inflicted.

Venezuela doesn't have the most profitable natural resources. Their oil is of a very low quality which means there are more processing costs such that it needs a high oil price in order to be profitable.

Not a great justification for killing one's own citizens, frankly it puts one on a moral par with the Saudis

Digby wrote:

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
You think? There's still plenty who regard Chavez's model as the one to aim for; its all just gone a bit wrong. The really sad thing is that unlike many countries where socialism has been tried and failed, which have few natural resources and might have failed anyway, Venezuela has one of the most profitable natural resources going and its current problems are largely self inflicted.

Venezuela doesn't have the most profitable natural resources. Their oil is of a very low quality which means there are more processing costs such that it needs a high oil price in order to be profitable.

Not a great justification for killing one's own citizens, frankly it puts one on a moral par with the Saudis

What? I think you'll find that the blame for the deaths is rarely directly stated in the news, primarily because the majority of the deaths are not caused by the government security forces. The Western media only insinuates that the government is responsible for the deaths. Happy to be proved wrong if you can find evidence to support your assertion...

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:

Zhivago wrote:
Venezuela doesn't have the most profitable natural resources. Their oil is of a very low quality which means there are more processing costs such that it needs a high oil price in order to be profitable.

Not a great justification for killing one's own citizens, frankly it puts one on a moral par with the Saudis

What? I think you'll find that the blame for the deaths is rarely directly stated in the news, primarily because the majority of the deaths are not caused by the government security forces. The Western media only insinuates that the government is responsible for the deaths. Happy to be proved wrong if you can find evidence to support your assertion...

My bad, the honest government forces are only killing a smaller number, so it's all okay.

Digby wrote:

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:
Not a great justification for killing one's own citizens, frankly it puts one on a moral par with the Saudis

What? I think you'll find that the blame for the deaths is rarely directly stated in the news, primarily because the majority of the deaths are not caused by the government security forces. The Western media only insinuates that the government is responsible for the deaths. Happy to be proved wrong if you can find evidence to support your assertion...

My bad, the honest government forces are only killing a smaller number, so it's all okay.

It's not okay. There's a lot of violence because of the crisis. But I do not see that the government is acting that much differently compared to how Western governments or Western-allied governments would if faced with a similar crisis and similar levels of extreme criminality.

Having read up on the economic policy of Venezuela, it seems very solid, despite recent inflation. I understand now why Goldman Sachs is buying up the cheap debt!!

Zhivago wrote:Having read up on the economic policy of Venezuela, it seems very solid, despite recent inflation. I understand now why Goldman Sachs is buying up the cheap debt!!

It's almost as if some Western economies are deliberately destabilising the region in order to exploit mineral assets that don't belong to them. Shirley, there's no precedent for that tactic.

kk67 wrote:

Zhivago wrote:Having read up on the economic policy of Venezuela, it seems very solid, despite recent inflation. I understand now why Goldman Sachs is buying up the cheap debt!!

It's almost as if some Western economies are deliberately destabilising the region in order to exploit mineral assets that don't belong to them. Shirley, there's no precedent for that tactic.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Digby wrote:

kk67 wrote:

Zhivago wrote:Having read up on the economic policy of Venezuela, it seems very solid, despite recent inflation. I understand now why Goldman Sachs is buying up the cheap debt!!

It's almost as if some Western economies are deliberately destabilising the region in order to exploit mineral assets that don't belong to them. Shirley, there's no precedent for that tactic.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Are people dying from starvation? There is possibly a food crisis and shortage, but it's being managed and there are handouts. People are starving in Africa as a result of capitalism. You'll not see comparable images coming out of Venezuela. I saw a video the other day of a Venezuelan complaining about lack of food... he looked very well nourished. In this recent report about food crises, Venezuela is not listed... so it seems to me that this narrative around starvation is just that... a conjured propaganda narrative that grossly exaggerates the situation regarding food insecurity.
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ses_v1.pdf

A lot of the protests are due to shortages of specific items, which cause a lot of distress when they are unavailable... things like napies, toilet paper etc. The sort of things that people really need... but there is no extreme food shortage. There is food distributed by the government... and you know what, the opposition gangs go around setting fire to the warehouses because the shortages and protests around those shortages further their aims to destabilise the government. Or they smuggle the subsidised food and other goods to neighbouring countries to sell at a profit.

And what's more... it is highly likely that the US is at play with covert actions at the least advising or training key members of these gangs. Obviously anything regarding a secret agency is speculation to some degree, but I would think the probability is high.

Zhivago wrote:
Are people dying from starvation? There is possibly a food crisis and shortage, but it's being managed and there are handouts. People are starving in Africa as a result of capitalism. You'll not see comparable images coming out of Venezuela. I saw a video the other day of a Venezuelan complaining about lack of food... he looked very well nourished. In this recent report about food crises, Venezuela is not listed... so it seems to me that this narrative around starvation is just that... a conjured propaganda narrative that grossly exaggerates the situation regarding food insecurity.
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ses_v1.pdf

A lot of the protests are due to shortages of specific items, which cause a lot of distress when they are unavailable... things like napies, toilet paper etc. The sort of things that people really need... but there is no extreme food shortage. There is food distributed by the government... and you know what, the opposition gangs go around setting fire to the warehouses because the shortages and protests around those shortages further their aims to destabilise the government. Or they smuggle the subsidised food and other goods to neighbouring countries to sell at a profit.

And what's more... it is highly likely that the US is at play with covert actions at the least advising or training key members of these gangs. Obviously anything regarding a secret agency is speculation to some degree, but I would think the probability is high.

Even were I to suppose to worst of the US in this it doesn't go close to justifying the actions in Venezuela. And yes people are starving, perhaps not to death yet, but certainly there's suffering and malnourishment.

If you want to praise a state run on socialist ideology that's fine, just find one worth praising. So far the number to chose from is zero, but you never know. The only thing being achieved in Venezuela is an ever increasing number of army generals to try and help a dictator maintain power, and that has nothing to do with anyone but Venezuela

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:Coming quick on the heels of Labour confirming their assurances they'd clear student debt actually meant they didn't know how big the debt was and they wouldn't do any such thing the team of all the talents surrounding Labour's Glorious Leader™ are busy now deleting previous posts praising Venezuela for showing that wealth can be shared and the poor matter, this after Venezuela spent the weekend killing some poor people and approving a more totalitarian approach.

You think? There's still plenty who regard Chavez's model as the one to aim for; its all just gone a bit wrong. The really sad thing is that unlike many countries where socialism has been tried and failed, which have few natural resources and might have failed anyway, Venezuela has one of the most profitable natural resources going and its current problems are largely self inflicted.

Venezuela doesn't have the most profitable natural resources. Their oil is of a very low quality which means there are more processing costs such that it needs a high oil price in order to be profitable.

It was profitable, and that opportunity was wasted. Chavez and his mob have driven out all investment and completely screwed the country.

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:

Zhivago wrote:
What? I think you'll find that the blame for the deaths is rarely directly stated in the news, primarily because the majority of the deaths are not caused by the government security forces. The Western media only insinuates that the government is responsible for the deaths. Happy to be proved wrong if you can find evidence to support your assertion...

My bad, the honest government forces are only killing a smaller number, so it's all okay.

It's not okay. There's a lot of violence because of the crisis. But I do not see that the government is acting that much differently compared to how Western governments or Western-allied governments would if faced with a similar crisis and similar levels of extreme criminality.

What? You mean bypassing the legitimate institutions and setting up nice compliant ones? Venezuela is becoming a totalitarian state. Amazing that some people still defend this.

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:

kk67 wrote:
It's almost as if some Western economies are deliberately destabilising the region in order to exploit mineral assets that don't belong to them. Shirley, there's no precedent for that tactic.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Are people dying from starvation? There is possibly a food crisis and shortage, but it's being managed and there are handouts. People are starving in Africa as a result of capitalism. You'll not see comparable images coming out of Venezuela. I saw a video the other day of a Venezuelan complaining about lack of food... he looked very well nourished. In this recent report about food crises, Venezuela is not listed... so it seems to me that this narrative around starvation is just that... a conjured propaganda narrative that grossly exaggerates the situation regarding food insecurity.
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ses_v1.pdf

A lot of the protests are due to shortages of specific items, which cause a lot of distress when they are unavailable... things like napies, toilet paper etc. The sort of things that people really need... but there is no extreme food shortage. There is food distributed by the government... and you know what, the opposition gangs go around setting fire to the warehouses because the shortages and protests around those shortages further their aims to destabilise the government. Or they smuggle the subsidised food and other goods to neighbouring countries to sell at a profit.

And what's more... it is highly likely that the US is at play with covert actions at the least advising or training key members of these gangs. Obviously anything regarding a secret agency is speculation to some degree, but I would think the probability is high.

The worst famine crisis in Africa was down to the actions of a nice left wing government, but let's not prevent any facts from getting in the way of an assertion.

And of course there is the need to blame the CIA. But of course those anti government freedom fighters in eastern Ukraine aren't inspired by Moscow? Good t see the RT propaganda is working.

Digby wrote:

kk67 wrote:

Zhivago wrote:Having read up on the economic policy of Venezuela, it seems very solid, despite recent inflation. I understand now why Goldman Sachs is buying up the cheap debt!!

It's almost as if some Western economies are deliberately destabilising the region in order to exploit mineral assets that don't belong to them. Shirley, there's no precedent for that tactic.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Correct. The consequence is what we occasionally term: WAR.
People die. It's bad.

kk67 wrote:

Digby wrote:

kk67 wrote:
It's almost as if some Western economies are deliberately destabilising the region in order to exploit mineral assets that don't belong to them. Shirley, there's no precedent for that tactic.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Correct. The consequence is what we occasionally term: WAR.
People die. It's bad.

More of a deflection than a defence

Digby wrote:

kk67 wrote:

Digby wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Correct. The consequence is what we occasionally term: WAR.
People die. It's bad.

More of a deflection than a defence

Really..?. That's your best...?

Sandydragon wrote:

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but then one can look around and see plenty of capitalist countries who try to destabilise each other. What the other countries might be doing isn't justification for the actions of Venezuela's government, and whilst there might be some solid elements to their economy taken as a whole it's basket case, their oil mayn't be top notch, but to go from that oil to people starving and an enormous black economy should be shaming to them.

Are people dying from starvation? There is possibly a food crisis and shortage, but it's being managed and there are handouts. People are starving in Africa as a result of capitalism. You'll not see comparable images coming out of Venezuela. I saw a video the other day of a Venezuelan complaining about lack of food... he looked very well nourished. In this recent report about food crises, Venezuela is not listed... so it seems to me that this narrative around starvation is just that... a conjured propaganda narrative that grossly exaggerates the situation regarding food insecurity.
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ses_v1.pdf

A lot of the protests are due to shortages of specific items, which cause a lot of distress when they are unavailable... things like napies, toilet paper etc. The sort of things that people really need... but there is no extreme food shortage. There is food distributed by the government... and you know what, the opposition gangs go around setting fire to the warehouses because the shortages and protests around those shortages further their aims to destabilise the government. Or they smuggle the subsidised food and other goods to neighbouring countries to sell at a profit.

And what's more... it is highly likely that the US is at play with covert actions at the least advising or training key members of these gangs. Obviously anything regarding a secret agency is speculation to some degree, but I would think the probability is high.

The worst famine crisis in Africa was down to the actions of a nice left wing government, but let's not prevent any facts from getting in the way of an assertion.

And of course there is the need to blame the CIA. But of course those anti government freedom fighters in eastern Ukraine aren't inspired by Moscow? Good t see the RT propaganda is working.

You miss my point I think. Famines and food insecurity are not due to left or right politics per se. There are politics on both sides of the spectrum that can have either positive or deleterious effects in terms of food security. I object to cherry picking this one occassion where there is food insecurity and exagerrating it to say 'See Socialism is EVIL!!". It's ludicrous.

Not sure why you're bringing Ukraine into this, but those fighters are clearly Russian proxies and I've never stated otherwise. I don't read RT.

Some food for thought.


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 30120.html

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Zhivago wrote:
Are people dying from starvation? There is possibly a food crisis and shortage, but it's being managed and there are handouts. People are starving in Africa as a result of capitalism. You'll not see comparable images coming out of Venezuela. I saw a video the other day of a Venezuelan complaining about lack of food... he looked very well nourished. In this recent report about food crises, Venezuela is not listed... so it seems to me that this narrative around starvation is just that... a conjured propaganda narrative that grossly exaggerates the situation regarding food insecurity.
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ses_v1.pdf

A lot of the protests are due to shortages of specific items, which cause a lot of distress when they are unavailable... things like napies, toilet paper etc. The sort of things that people really need... but there is no extreme food shortage. There is food distributed by the government... and you know what, the opposition gangs go around setting fire to the warehouses because the shortages and protests around those shortages further their aims to destabilise the government. Or they smuggle the subsidised food and other goods to neighbouring countries to sell at a profit.

And what's more... it is highly likely that the US is at play with covert actions at the least advising or training key members of these gangs. Obviously anything regarding a secret agency is speculation to some degree, but I would think the probability is high.

The worst famine crisis in Africa was down to the actions of a nice left wing government, but let's not prevent any facts from getting in the way of an assertion.

And of course there is the need to blame the CIA. But of course those anti government freedom fighters in eastern Ukraine aren't inspired by Moscow? Good t see the RT propaganda is working.

You miss my point I think. Famines and food insecurity are not due to left or right politics per se. There are politics on both sides of the spectrum that can have either positive or deleterious effects in terms of food security. I object to cherry picking this one occassion where there is food insecurity and exagerrating it to say 'See Socialism is EVIL!!". It's ludicrous.

Not sure why you're bringing Ukraine into this, but those fighters are clearly Russian proxies and I've never stated otherwise. I don't read RT.

I don't think I said look at this situation it's evil due to Socialism.

Of Venezuela the situation is evil, as one tends to find with dictatorships. And in separate comment there's no example of a successful Socialist state, which might in fairness only mean yet, although the idea does seem to run afoul when confronted by human nature.

Sandydragon wrote:Some food for thought.


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 30120.html

Not particularly insightful.

"The government is also running out of cash. According to the Central Bank of Venezuela, the country has $10.4bn in foreign reserves left, and it is estimated to have a debt of $7.2bn. "

This doesn't make sense. So, it has debts of $7.2bn and $10.4bn in savings? It's bullshit. The debt is obviously a lot more than that, and foreign reserves aren't for settling debt.

It does have a tricky situation regarding its debt. Because the US has cut it off from US money markets with stringent sanctions. It's so obvious that US is targetting regime change, and is doing so because the oil price drop makes it an opportune time to do so. US is the enemy of left wing countries.

I see Jacob Rees-Mogg continues to destroy his chances of being made party leader. That mayn't have ever been a realistic ambition, but post his support for children arising from rape/incest no matter the mother's wishes/age he's dropped the ball again with his comments on food banks. I can't think of anyone offhand who's done so much to derail their chances quite as quickly, tbh I thought his dubious science on climate change would do for his chances but he's moved to ensure it never gets that far.

And it is odd as whilst he might never have been Tory party leader he'd surely love the job of Speaker of the House of Commons, and he must have done real damage to those chances.

Digby wrote: And it is odd as whilst he might never have been Tory party leader he'd surely love the job of Speaker of the House of Commons, and he must have done real damage to those chances.

It's just a game to these Eton spivs. It's all about the ego.
They will be remembered as crooks.

It's odd that in this day and age we still seem to want to vote to be ruled by the exact same classes as have ruled the country for generations. A place in parliament used to be based on who your family was. Now it seems based in doing the right course at the right university, which seems based on going to the right school, which is based on cost, which is based to a large extent in who your family is.

It's no wonder we end up with daft pricks like Mr Johnson.

kk67 wrote:

Digby wrote: And it is odd as whilst he might never have been Tory party leader he'd surely love the job of Speaker of the House of Commons, and he must have done real damage to those chances.

It's just a game to these Eton spivs. It's all about the ego.
They will be remembered as crooks.

I don't remotely get that impression from Rees-Mogg, I mayn't agree with a lot of his thinking, I may even rather dislike a lot of it. But I wouldn't conclude he's not truly trying to do what he thinks best for the country, not even if one might want to conclude a person who's never changed a nappy in the process of having 6 children hasn't got a sodding clue