New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Banquo]

Seems like a bit of an odd argument. Would you be happy with Lawrence playing that role if he were starting at 13?

They way Aki does for Ireland? Could be a great fake and commit a lot of defenders. Would be a bit of a waste considering how effective he is further out and his passing game isn't as good as Slade's.

Tuipolotu for Scotland is incredible at playing both secondary playmaker and crash ball option. It's no surprise Scotland faltered in the 6N after he got injured. Such a well rounded player he gives Scotland a lot of options and it allows Russell that but more room to operate. If Lawrence could develop along those lines now that would be interesting.

I thought this was essentially the point that Banquo and I were making? Maybe Slade isn't technically playing inside centre, but he's often the centre stood closer in alongside the fly-half so that Lawrence can hit lines outside of that. I'm just not sure it's a useful distinction.

I don't think Lawrence has anywhere near the skillset of Tuipulotu, or even Aki. Obviously it would be great if he had that composure and variety in handling and distribution though.

It's complicated by Slade being the main defensive decision maker at 13 in this setup. Swapping Freeman or another 13 in for Slade, for example, wouldn't necessarily be a simple change with Lawrence staying at 12. Not if we wanted to continue relying on that attacking shape with the 10 floating behind the 12.

Well yes, seems we are violently agreeing, but maybe not

[16th man]

Normally we'd probably want our club sides to get to the semis and finals of Europe to get the high level competition, but, given that this is the year after a world cup, and we're in New Zealand in the summer, is it a terrible thing for England if a lot of the squad don't have those games in their legs, especially as it's highly likely to be being beaten up by monster French club packs?

[Puja]

Normally we'd probably want our club sides to get to the semis and finals of Europe to get the high level competition, but, given that this is the year after a world cup, and we're in New Zealand in the summer, is it a terrible thing for England if a lot of the squad don't have those games in their legs, especially as it's highly likely to be being beaten up by monster French club packs?

That thought occurred to me when we were talking about Itoje's workload the other week.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Normally we'd probably want our club sides to get to the semis and finals of Europe to get the high level competition, but, given that this is the year after a world cup, and we're in New Zealand in the summer, is it a terrible thing for England if a lot of the squad don't have those games in their legs, especially as it's highly likely to be being beaten up by monster French club packs?

That thought occurred to me when we were talking about Itoje's workload the other week.

Puja

The European competition at this last sixteen, knock-out stage starts to get interesting. If only it began here at this level back in September with the final before a 6N (with no gap weeks)! There - season work load sorted.

[Mellsblue]

Normally we'd probably want our club sides to get to the semis and finals of Europe to get the high level competition, but, given that this is the year after a world cup, and we're in New Zealand in the summer, is it a terrible thing for England if a lot of the squad don't have those games in their legs, especially as it's highly likely to be being beaten up by monster French club packs?

That thought occurred to me when we were talking about Itoje's workload the other week.

Puja

The European competition at this last sixteen, knock-out stage starts to get interesting. If only it began here at this level back in September with the final before a 6N (with no gap weeks)! There - season work load sorted.

How do you make the calendar look to achieve this?

[Puja]

Normally we'd probably want our club sides to get to the semis and finals of Europe to get the high level competition, but, given that this is the year after a world cup, and we're in New Zealand in the summer, is it a terrible thing for England if a lot of the squad don't have those games in their legs, especially as it's highly likely to be being beaten up by monster French club packs?

That thought occurred to me when we were talking about Itoje's workload the other week.

Puja

The European competition at this last sixteen, knock-out stage starts to get interesting. If only it began here at this level back in September with the final before a 6N (with no gap weeks)! There - season work load sorted.

European rugby at the outset of professionalism tried to model itself on the successful model of European football, with competitions mixed and matched amidst each other, but it just doesn't work in rugby, not least because midweek games turned out to be impossible in top-level games, no matter how much the marketing men wanted them.

I would be very much in favour of a complete redraw of the season to have it more like SH - a domestic competition in a solid bloc, followed by an international club competition in a solid bloc. You could actually build a narrative across the season. There's still the question of how you fit enough weeks into the year though - 20 Prem games, 9 Euro games (in a 16 team, 4x4 pool format), 11-13 internationals, 3 weeks' pre tournament training/travel, 6 weeks offseason, 2 weeks' pre-season - that's 53 weeks in a year.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I'd have the European as straight KO. 16, 8, 4, 2 = 4 weeks.

[Mellsblue]

I'd have the European as straight KO. 16, 8, 4, 2 = 4 weeks.

The lack of three guaranteed home games might be the final nail in the financial coffin for some.

[Oakboy]

I'd have the European as straight KO. 16, 8, 4, 2 = 4 weeks.

The lack of three guaranteed home games might be the final nail in the financial coffin for some.

Something has to give. Clubs should be in a position to survive with smaller squads if their international players are more available.

[Banquo]

I'd have the European as straight KO. 16, 8, 4, 2 = 4 weeks.

The lack of three guaranteed home games might be the final nail in the financial coffin for some.

Something has to give. Clubs should be in a position to survive with smaller squads if their international players are more available.

well they will have to make do with smaller squads (35+12). But the economics won't work for less club games. Without home games, clubs will die.Its a death spiral, potentially.

[FKAS]

I'd have the European as straight KO. 16, 8, 4, 2 = 4 weeks.

The lack of three guaranteed home games might be the final nail in the financial coffin for some.

Tigers generate something like a million squid per home game. Removing home games is going to hit them quite badly. They are just getting by on a small loss each year. Losing more home games will send them to the wall.

Unfortunately you can't survive with smaller squads as seen this weekend with international games sending all over Chessum, Martin and Reffell back with knocks. Cole had a required rest week as well.

Other teams will be in similar positions.

[Banquo]

I'd have the European as straight KO. 16, 8, 4, 2 = 4 weeks.

The lack of three guaranteed home games might be the final nail in the financial coffin for some.

Tigers generate something like a million squid per home game. Removing home games is going to hit them quite badly. They are just getting by on a small loss each year. Losing more home games will send them to the wall.

Unfortunately you can't survive with smaller squads as seen this weekend with international games sending all over Chessum, Martin and Reffell back with knocks. Cole had a required rest week as well.

Other teams will be in similar positions.

be interesting when 35+12 kicks in

[FKAS]

The lack of three guaranteed home games might be the final nail in the financial coffin for some.

Tigers generate something like a million squid per home game. Removing home games is going to hit them quite badly. They are just getting by on a small loss each year. Losing more home games will send them to the wall.

Unfortunately you can't survive with smaller squads as seen this weekend with international games sending all over Chessum, Martin and Reffell back with knocks. Cole had a required rest week as well.

Other teams will be in similar positions.

be interesting when 35+12 kicks in

Going to see some emergency loans from Championship clubs going on or extensive use of the injury dispensation scheme.

[Banquo]

Tigers generate something like a million squid per home game. Removing home games is going to hit them quite badly. They are just getting by on a small loss each year. Losing more home games will send them to the wall.

Unfortunately you can't survive with smaller squads as seen this weekend with international games sending all over Chessum, Martin and Reffell back with knocks. Cole had a required rest week as well.

Other teams will be in similar positions.

be interesting when 35+12 kicks in

Going to see some emergency loans from Championship clubs going on

lol, how ironic

[FKAS]

be interesting when 35+12 kicks in

Going to see some emergency loans from Championship clubs going on

lol, how ironic

It's what feeder clubs are for...

[Banquo]

Going to see some emergency loans from Championship clubs going on

lol, how ironic

It's what feeder clubs are for...

you mean the feeder clubs that pay the prem clubs for players?

I was meaning more that the prem clubs expect to offload their excess players to Champ clubs when the cap kicks in. They may be surprised to find that the Champ clubs have no dosh, even if the RFU does subsidise the u20 rising stars.

(I'm also hoping you are joking, as its that attitude from the RFU and PRL that causes so much angst)

[FKAS]

lol, how ironic

It's what feeder clubs are for...

you mean the feeder clubs that pay the prem clubs for players?

I was meaning more that the prem clubs expect to offload their excess players to Champ clubs when the cap kicks in. They may be surprised to find that the Champ clubs have no dosh, even if the RFU does subsidise the u20 rising stars.

(I'm also hoping you are joking, as its that attitude from the RFU and PRL that causes so much angst)

Quid pro quo. Prem teams provide players to Championship sides to help fill out their squads. Come injury crisis the reverse becomes true.

Championship clubs probably won't like it but that's the likelihood of reduced Prem squads.

[Banquo]

It's what feeder clubs are for...

you mean the feeder clubs that pay the prem clubs for players?

I was meaning more that the prem clubs expect to offload their excess players to Champ clubs when the cap kicks in. They may be surprised to find that the Champ clubs have no dosh, even if the RFU does subsidise the u20 rising stars.

(I'm also hoping you are joking, as its that attitude from the RFU and PRL that causes so much angst)

Quid pro quo. Prem teams provide players to Championship sides to help fill out their squads. Come injury crisis the reverse becomes true.

Championship clubs probably won't like it but that's the likelihood of reduced Prem squads.

They don't 'provide' them, they get paid for them- £120k pa in most cases, which offsets their wage bills and gives game time to often squad fillers or youngsters who don't get much of a chance; of course that doesn't apply to the 4 fully pro teams, either.

[Oakboy]

I do not have the in-depth knowledge of club finances that some of you chaps do. The underlying principles that seem important to me are twofold: 1. Everybody gains from a strong (i.e. in world top three) international team; 2. Clubs' fans want to see their best XV on the pitch for all matches that matter. All admin decisions need to take that into account, not pay lip-service to it. I don't think country or clubs are getting the balance right.

[Banquo]

I do not have the in-depth knowledge of club finances that some of you chaps do. The underlying principles that seem important to me are twofold: 1. Everybody gains from a strong (i.e. in world top three) international team; 2. Clubs' fans want to see their best XV on the pitch for all matches that matter. All admin decisions need to take that into account, not pay lip-service to it. I don't think country or clubs are getting the balance right.

Yes. But the core problem is not enough income plus repayment of covid loans. I wouldn’t start from here, esp with male adult participation falling off a cliff

[Oakboy]

I do not have the in-depth knowledge of club finances that some of you chaps do. The underlying principles that seem important to me are twofold: 1. Everybody gains from a strong (i.e. in world top three) international team; 2. Clubs' fans want to see their best XV on the pitch for all matches that matter. All admin decisions need to take that into account, not pay lip-service to it. I don't think country or clubs are getting the balance right.

Yes. But the core problem is not enough income plus repayment of covid loans. I wouldn’t start from here, esp with male adult participation falling off a cliff

Is the adult male drop-off countrywide? I don't get involved with local clubs in South Dorset but it is reported that junior participation is thriving.

Out of interest, were the covid loans from government? Did rugby clubs not get grants?

My squash club received £45,000+ in various covid grants. The original govt grant of 18,000 more than offset loss of membership fee income and it was decided by the club management committee not to apply for it in the second year as it was not needed. Then, unannounced, a repeat sum just arrived in the club's bank account and our morals did not extend to trying to pay it back!!!

I imagine that was small stuff compared with rugby club finances.

[Banquo]

I do not have the in-depth knowledge of club finances that some of you chaps do. The underlying principles that seem important to me are twofold: 1. Everybody gains from a strong (i.e. in world top three) international team; 2. Clubs' fans want to see their best XV on the pitch for all matches that matter. All admin decisions need to take that into account, not pay lip-service to it. I don't think country or clubs are getting the balance right.

Yes. But the core problem is not enough income plus repayment of covid loans. I wouldn’t start from here, esp with male adult participation falling off a cliff

Is the adult male drop-off countrywide? I don't get involved with local clubs in South Dorset but it is reported that junior participation is thriving.

Out of interest, were the covid loans from government? Did rugby clubs not get grants?

My squash club received £45,000+ in various covid grants. The original govt grant of 18,000 more than offset loss of membership fee income and it was decided by the club management committee not to apply for it in the second year as it was not needed. Then, unannounced, a repeat sum just arrived in the club's bank account and our morals did not extend to trying to pay it back!!!

I imagine that was small stuff compared with rugby club finances.

Countrywide drop off with the odd green shoots- I'm hoping the rate of drop off is slowing; we've worked really hard to get a development side and a 'third' team out this season and its just bearing fruit- women has grown hugely though and should get promoted this season. Getting guys turning out every saturday/away surprisingly difficult; we've had to spend money on more coaching, team management, physios and even post training meals for junior sides.

Covid loans c £150 million from DCMS to RFU for PRL clubs, probs another £25 mill to champ and lower- loans, not grants, and DCMS wants them back.

[jimKRFC]

Is the adult male drop-off countrywide? I don't get involved with local clubs in South Dorset but it is reported that junior participation is thriving.

In my experience, Wiltshire, the only growing demographic is girls. There have been a fair few sides in the Dorset & Wilts area that have merged or folded boys sides.

Adult men's sides are also down in numbers & numbers of sides being put out.

[Banquo]

Is the adult male drop-off countrywide? I don't get involved with local clubs in South Dorset but it is reported that junior participation is thriving.

In my experience, Wiltshire, the only growing demographic is girls. There have been a fair few sides in the Dorset & Wilts area that have merged or folded boys sides.

Adult men's sides are also down in numbers & numbers of sides being put out.

Yup

[Epaminondas Pules]

We’ve had a mix. There’s some clubs where they’ve struggled with number dropping off and other who are thriving like never before. We’re one of those. Even more so the girls sections are really thriving. Getting great numbers.