RugbyRebels

So with 62% (ish) of the vote will this lead to unity or resignations? I hope now that some of his apponents will start to see that labour members are keen in an alternative to centre right policies.

Fair play, I thought Chuka Umanna did a good interview after the result.

Looks like Corbyn is going to try and initially unite the party around the Tories plans for Grammar schools; a topic the entire party seems united on.

It will be interesting to see whether Corbyn opens up voting on the Shadow Cabinet, which seems to be what the MPs are now pushing as their line in the sand otherwise they huff and puff like little girls again. I think it should be an in-between, hand pick a few and then open up voting for the rest.

In the PLP, some will come back to the shadow cabinet, though that will be dependent on their being elections, some will stay on the back benches. Some rebels will continue to loudly moan.

The wider party? Some will definitely quit. Good hardworking activists will leave the party.

Unity? Not a chance. Corbyn isnt going to alter much - I dont expect him to make any genuinely concilliatory gestures to those who have opposed him. That would require the kind of leadership that is frankly beyond Corbyn.

Strife and unrest are set to continue.

You've reached some interesting conclusions there 5p.
If you don't mind me saying you sound a bit like Basil Fawlty. i.e. We could run this democratic party a helluva lot better if it wasn't for those damned voters.

Not exactly a surprise, but this whole episode was very damaging for labour. I do think that Owen Smith was hung out to dry by the bigger names in the labour party who were too scared of Corbyns mandate to challenge him themselves. As for Angela Eagle ......

I doubt that the general population will ever vote Corbyn into government though and I think there will continue to be a degree of backstabbing for years to come in the party. But probably the biggest problem with labour is Momentum. Being militant will not win them the general election

Corbyn can likely expect the same sort of unity as he sought under Kinnock, Smith, Blair and Brown, he'll have earned it too

stud muffin wrote: But probably the biggest problem with labour is Momentum. Being militant will not win them the general election

Are they 'militant'..?. I've read about JC's Trotsky past and suggestions Momentum is being overrun by the hard left but I've not actually seen any evidence of it apart from SWP placards at rallies and they would be there in any case. They mostly seem to be people who want to reintroduce (introduce) a bit of probity into government and into our democratic process. One vote every 4/5 years doesn't make a democracy.
It has been a bit disappointing that as the information age has exploded and we all have access to far more knowledge of the corruption that takes place in Parliament, the business world and in the global sphere, that things haven't changed a bit more rapidly.
It is clear that there are an awful lot of very powerful people who are desperately trying to protect their vested interests and will pull any cheap trick to hold onto their little bubble of privilege and that we're all fairly sick of it. Sadly though despite the illegal wars, the financial sector trying to gamble all our lives at the bookies, the big 4 accountancy firms constantly being fined for conflict of interests, the epidemic of corruption in local government etc....it seems our predominantly right wing media are more than complicit in pretending it's just business as usual and to attempt reform of the system is a very dangerous thing indeed.
It makes me wonder just how bad things are going to get before the establishment will actually do anything. Big business wanting to protect it's profit margins is one thing but when it's patently obvious that our establishment are deliberately stalling investigations into the historical sexual abuse of children,......then there is something very wrong indeed.

Rant over,....time to pick up the kitbag and hit the road.

stud muffin wrote:Not exactly a surprise, but this whole episode was very damaging for labour. I do think that Owen Smith was hung out to dry by the bigger names in the labour party who were too scared of Corbyns mandate to challenge him themselves. As for Angela Eagle ......

I doubt that the general population will ever vote Corbyn into government though and I think there will continue to be a degree of backstabbing for years to come in the party. But probably the biggest problem with labour is Momentum. Being militant will not win them the general election

This. Could the anti Corbyn lobby not find a better candidate?

Sandydragon wrote:

stud muffin wrote:Not exactly a surprise, but this whole episode was very damaging for labour. I do think that Owen Smith was hung out to dry by the bigger names in the labour party who were too scared of Corbyns mandate to challenge him themselves. As for Angela Eagle ......

I doubt that the general population will ever vote Corbyn into government though and I think there will continue to be a degree of backstabbing for years to come in the party. But probably the biggest problem with labour is Momentum. Being militant will not win them the general election

This. Could the anti Corbyn lobby not find a better candidate?

They're clearly in the minority outside of caucus, and I somewhat doubt they have anyone that wouldn't make the pro-Corbyn/anti-establishment crowds go "aw just fuck off the nearest cliff, you cunt."

Even taking into account the issues with Corbyn as a leader, their behavior has been absolutely disgraceful.

cashead wrote: Even taking into account the issues with Corbyn as a leader, their behavior has been absolutely disgraceful.

I'd agree it's been disgraceful, but for such reasons that they've put their political careers ahead of standing up to Corbyn, it's shaming too many big names haven't been willing to run, it's still at least in part shaming they're simply not leaving the party to establish something along the lines of a social democratic party. It's easy to see why they'd be willing to wait and hope some sanity returns in the future, but doing the easy isn't what one hopes of potential leaders.

Digby wrote:

cashead wrote: Even taking into account the issues with Corbyn as a leader, their behavior has been absolutely disgraceful.

I'd agree it's been disgraceful, but for such reasons that they've put their political careers ahead of standing up to Corbyn, it's shaming too many big names haven't been willing to run, it's still at least in part shaming they're simply not leaving the party to establish something along the lines of a social democratic party. It's easy to see why they'd be willing to wait and hope some sanity returns in the future, but doing the easy isn't what one hopes of potential leaders.

I don't think their decision to act like a bunch of whiny crybaby fucklords would be doing much for their political careers based on today's result. It's a resounding "fuck you and your ilk, now do us all a favour and fucking fuck off, you fucking cuntfucks. P.S. go fuck yourselves" delivered from the party base to the shitheads in caucus.
I mean, the Brexit shambles was a golden opportunity delivered on a platter, and they decided that they were better off blasting their feet off with anti-aircraft guns instead. Who'd want to vote for that shit?

Seriously, seeing the footage of how the Blairites have behaved since Corbyn was elected leader can be summed up as this:

Would seem to hold perhaps for those on the left too, they seem happy that by talking to themselves and agreeing with themselves that there's support across the country that means they're not actually a political joke allowing the loonier fringes of the Tory party a free whirl at policies.

Sigh.

Well goodbye to any hope of the Tories actually having an effective opposition. Hello to bad policy being poorly implemented by the nuttier fringes of the Tories.

Momentum are manna from heaven for the conservatives. A party within a party who can be accused of pulling the strings and having a revolutionary socialist agenda - after all that's what the deputy leader of the Labour Party has said. For the Labour party they are not so good. Yes they may motivate and capture a lot of people who think that their facebook feed is representative of the country, but are they going to persuade a single person south of Birmingham to vote Labour? Are they ever going to do enough to recapture the racist poor from UKIP in the North? Are they going to do anything to make any inroads in Scotland?

Were I a non-Momentum Labour suporter I'd get with attacking the Tories for a lack of mandate. Lack of a mandate for the type of Brexit or for things like increased grammar school provision or anything else that wasn't in their manifesto. The best thing that can possibly happen for Labour is an early election. An early election will be fought on the current boundaries and with the current MPs. When the nigh on inevitable trouncing happens then there's a chance to have Corbyn removed.

But when Corbyn loses will Momentum grow up, or decide they need a still purer candidate? And how much control will the left of the Labour party have in another 12-18 months over the Labour Party?

Be interesting to see what Corbyn does over the shadow cabinet, agree with himself (at least it was his position) on having the MPs vote in the shadow cabinet and repair some damage with his MPs, or given that move will be seen as a betrayal by some on the left of the party and as it'll leave him more exposed to people who don't agree with him will he hold out for his own appointments?

Agree or can see all of the above.
The guy I'd really like to be able to vote for is the young whippersnapper Owen Jones. There should be some constitutional addendum where we can force people into becoming politicians. Like jury duty or an elected 2nd house.

Digby wrote:But when Corbyn loses will Momentum grow up, or decide they need a still purer candidate? And how much control will the left of the Labour party have in another 12-18 months over the Labour Party?

Be interesting to see what Corbyn does over the shadow cabinet, agree with himself (at least it was his position) on having the MPs vote in the shadow cabinet and repair some damage with his MPs, or given that move will be seen as a betrayal by some on the left of the party and as it'll leave him more exposed to people who don't agree with him will he hold out for his own appointments?

They won't get a purer candidate and it's in good part a (lack of) personality cult anyway. What I suspect they'd do is say that he would have won but for being undermined but some people will probably move on to the next shiny new campaign and others will realise that the polls weren't a conspiracy by Big Polling and he might actually not be electable.

What Corbyn will probably do about the shadow cabinet is punt it off to committee and discuss it to death letting it become a festering sore before coming up with something that pleases no one.

There is at least with Corybn a chance to wonder just how loopy a candidate on the right one would vote for over Corbyn. Would one play safe and say yes I'd vote May or Boris over Corbyn, but what of a Gove, Farage or Hunt, or looking outside British politics a Trump or Berlusconi?

Digby wrote:There is at least with Corybn a chance to wonder just how loopy a candidate on the right one would vote for over Corbyn. Would one play safe and say yes I'd vote May or Boris over Corbyn, but what of a Gove, Farage or Hunt, or looking outside British politics a Trump or Berlusconi?

Difficult with a parliamentary democracy as there isn't a straight read from the wackiness of the leader to what they are likely to pass through both houses. However I'd take Corbyn over Trump every time. And over Farage.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Digby wrote:There is at least with Corybn a chance to wonder just how loopy a candidate on the right one would vote for over Corbyn. Would one play safe and say yes I'd vote May or Boris over Corbyn, but what of a Gove, Farage or Hunt, or looking outside British politics a Trump or Berlusconi?

Difficult with a parliamentary democracy as there isn't a straight read from the wackiness of the leader to what they are likely to pass through both houses. However I'd take Corbyn over Trump every time. And over Farage.

Sidestepping the Berlusconi issue like a skilled politician

Digby wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Digby wrote:There is at least with Corybn a chance to wonder just how loopy a candidate on the right one would vote for over Corbyn. Would one play safe and say yes I'd vote May or Boris over Corbyn, but what of a Gove, Farage or Hunt, or looking outside British politics a Trump or Berlusconi?

Difficult with a parliamentary democracy as there isn't a straight read from the wackiness of the leader to what they are likely to pass through both houses. However I'd take Corbyn over Trump every time. And over Farage.

Sidestepping the Berlusconi issue like a skilled politician

I'm not sure I know enough about berlusconi save that he was a borderline kleptocrat who only entered government as a business move. Actually if he has enough odious policies he might be the prototype for Trump.

Bunga bunga parties in the US? Well Trump does have a fancy building in Vegas and what happens in Vegas.......

Back on topic and the labour party has royally fecked its last remaining hope for any victory in 2020. I half agree with Eugene that an early election resulting in a wipeout might be beneficial, but I'm not convinced that someone equally as loopy wouldn't be next. As it is, the changes to the constituency boundaries will probably get much of the blame for any 2020 loss.

Meanwhile, what are the Liberals doing? This is a golden opportunity for them to capture those central left voters who liked Blair et al and reform themselves. Yet their profile is a long way oof a party which is seriously trying to re-emerge as one of the main parties in Britain.

Sandydragon wrote:Bunga bunga parties in the US? Well Trump does have a fancy building in Vegas and what happens in Vegas.......

Back on topic and the labour party has royally fecked its last remaining hope for any victory in 2020. I half agree with Eugene that an early election resulting in a wipeout might be beneficial, but I'm not convinced that someone equally as loopy wouldn't be next. As it is, the changes to the constituency boundaries will probably get much of the blame for any 2020 loss.

Meanwhile, what are the Liberals doing? This is a golden opportunity for them to capture those central left voters who liked Blair et al and reform themselves. Yet their profile is a long way oof a party which is seriously trying to re-emerge as one of the main parties in Britain.

There won't be a wipe out. It will be a drubbing - back to the days of a triple figure majority - but they won't be near wipe out.

The Lib Dems chose the wrong leader - although I'm not sure there was a right one left among the MPs since Nick Clegg didn't want to continue - and 4th parties never get much in the way of coverage.

An early election would be interesting for a number of reasons particularly Labours leadership and to me, what happens in Scotland.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Bunga bunga parties in the US? Well Trump does have a fancy building in Vegas and what happens in Vegas.......

Back on topic and the labour party has royally fecked its last remaining hope for any victory in 2020. I half agree with Eugene that an early election resulting in a wipeout might be beneficial, but I'm not convinced that someone equally as loopy wouldn't be next. As it is, the changes to the constituency boundaries will probably get much of the blame for any 2020 loss.

Meanwhile, what are the Liberals doing? This is a golden opportunity for them to capture those central left voters who liked Blair et al and reform themselves. Yet their profile is a long way oof a party which is seriously trying to re-emerge as one of the main parties in Britain.

There won't be a wipe out. It will be a drubbing - back to the days of a triple figure majority - but they won't be near wipe out.

The Lib Dems chose the wrong leader - although I'm not sure there was a right one left among the MPs since Nick Clegg didn't want to continue - and 4th parties never get much in the way of coverage.

I agree about the Lib Dem leadership, although choices were/ are limited. Fourth party status notwithstanding, I think they should be making more noise. UKIP are further down the pecking order and get considerably more coverage.

Perhaps wipe out is a overstatement, yet I can see Labour being reduced to a small rump if they are not careful. If UKIP can continue to exert influence in certain constituencies, then there is every chance that some Labour heartlands will be lost to them. I think they can forget about swing voters for quite some time and Scotland also seems lost for the next few parliaments whilst the other parties work out how to oppose the SNP. Ruth Davidson seems to most effective there, but as a Conservative she can directly oppose SNP policies in a number of areas and be an alternative voice. Labour have a positioning problem in that they cant outmanoeuvre the SNP to the left and have no intention of moving to their right. I think it will take years for the SNP bubble to burst. In addition, if parts of Wales move away from Labour, then they are left clinging to some seats in London and their old industrial heartlands in the Midlands and North.

As you wrote earlier, it will probably take a real hiding, or two, for them to come to their senses and the student union politicians who failed to grow up to move back to other fringe parties.