US Army & CIA War Criminals

[rowan]

There's little doubt America committed war crimes in Afghanistan and elsewhere, given all the video and photographic evidence that came to light, and it's undoubtedly the mere tip of a colossal iceberg. The problem is that America is not a member of the International Criminal Court, refusing to sign and instead responded to the organization's foundation by enacting a law dubbed the 'Netherlands Invasion Act' - allowing for the US to invade Holland in the event of any American being brought to trial at the Hague. Meanwhile the court has busied itself prosecuting African leaders while the US has proceeded to destroy much of the Middle East, and the people responsible for the latter are praised by the press and much of the public alike. So it's no surprise that African nations are beginning to abandon the ICC. Perhaps this latest development is partly in response to that...

US armed forces and the CIA may have committed war crimes by torturing detainees in Afghanistan, the international criminal court’s chief prosecutor has said in a report, raising the possibility that American citizens could be indicted even though Washington has not joined the global court.

“Members of US armed forces appear to have subjected at least 61 detained persons to torture, cruel treatment, outrages upon personal dignity on the territory of Afghanistan between 1 May 2003 and 31 December 2014,” according to the report issued by prosecutor Fatou Bensouda’s office on Monday.

The report adds that CIA operatives may have subjected at least 27 detainees in Afghanistan, Poland, Romania and Lithuania to “torture, cruel treatment, outrages upon personal dignity and/or rape” between December 2002 and March 2008.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/no ... are_btn_fb

Obomber's legacy: http://consciouslifenews.com/u-s-droppe ... /11105690/#

[rowan]

Russia is the latest to pull out of the ICC, accused it of bias and lacking efficacy http://www.euronews.com/2016/11/16/mosc ... -community

[Stones of granite]

Russia is the latest to pull out of the ICC, accused it of bias and lacking efficacy http://www.euronews.com/2016/11/16/mosc ... -community

I'm sure this is a principled stand, and nothing to do with the ICC recently exposing Russia's lies about it's armed annexation of Crimea, and describing it as an a going international armed conflict.

[rowan]

Russia is the latest to pull out of the ICC, accused it of bias and lacking efficacy http://www.euronews.com/2016/11/16/mosc ... -community

I'm sure this is a principled stand, and nothing to do with the ICC recently exposing Russia's lies about it's armed annexation of Crimea, and describing it as an a going international armed conflict.

I'm not aware of the ICC exposing any lies on the issue. I do know that Crimea has an ethnic Russian majority so the people voted overwhelmingly to return to Russia when the CIA orchestrated a coup against the pro-Russian government in Kiev and installed a corrupt pro-Western oligarch in his place, leading to civil war and massacres of ethnic Russians. Meanwhile, America just bombs countries to smithereens, killing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, and the ICC is too busy looking at Africa to notice. That is, until now, as it realizes its credibility has all but turned to dust...

[Stones of granite]

Russia is the latest to pull out of the ICC, accused it of bias and lacking efficacy http://www.euronews.com/2016/11/16/mosc ... -community

I'm sure this is a principled stand, and nothing to do with the ICC recently exposing Russia's lies about it's armed annexation of Crimea, and describing it as an a going international armed conflict.

I'm not aware of the ICC exposing any lies on the issue. I do know that Crimea has an ethnic Russian majority so the people voted overwhelmingly to return to Russia when the CIA orchestrated a coup against the pro-Russian government in Kiev and installed a corrupt pro-Western oligarch in his place, leading to civil war and massacres of ethnic Russians. Meanwhile, America just bombs countries to smithereens, killing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, and the ICC is too busy looking at Africa to notice. That is, until now, as it realizes its credibility has all but turned to dust...

Perhaps you should get your news from sources other than Kremlin agitprop fronts, then.

https://www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/otp/161 ... PE_ENG.pdf

[rowan]

So answer these questions:

Are ethnic Russians the majority in Crimea?

Did massacres of ethnic Russians occur during the civil war which followed the pro-Western coup in the Ukraine?

Would ethnic Russians wish to remain under a government which has massacred ethnic Russians?

Was there bloodshed during the Russian 'annexation' of its former territory Crimea?

Has there been bloodshed in America's wars on Afghanistan and Iraq?

Yes or no will suffice.

[Stones of granite]

So answer these questions:

Are ethnic Russians the majority in Crimea?

Did massacres of ethnic Russians occur during the civil war which followed the pro-Western coup in the Ukraine?

Would ethnic Russians wish to remain under a government which has massacred ethnic Russians?

Was there bloodshed during the Russian 'annexation' of its former territory Crimea?

Has there been bloodshed in America's wars on Afghanistan and Iraq?

Yes or no will suffice.

Answer the questions:

Did Russia illegally breach the national sovereignty of Ukraine by an armed annexation of Crimea?

Did Russia start, and now continue to prosecute a war in Eastern Ukraine by providing finance, weapons and troops resulting in the deaths and dislocation of many thousands of civilians?

Did Russia enact a law making any discussion of Russian military casualties in Ukraine a state secret punishable by a jail sentence?

Yer or no will suffice

[rowan]

So you answer questions with questions, but don't answer the questions.

Russia didn't start the conflict in the Ukraine. Why would they, when there was a pro-Russian government in place? The CIA orchestrated a coup to bring about regime change and install a pro-Western leadership, even if it was entirely corrupt. That's no surprise to anybody. That's what the CIA does. From the horse's mouth:

[Sandydragon]

So answer these questions:

Are ethnic Russians the majority in Crimea?

Did massacres of ethnic Russians occur during the civil war which followed the pro-Western coup in the Ukraine?

Would ethnic Russians wish to remain under a government which has massacred ethnic Russians?

Was there bloodshed during the Russian 'annexation' of its former territory Crimea?

Has there been bloodshed in America's wars on Afghanistan and Iraq?

Yes or no will suffice.

were there ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia and Poland?

Just asking, but last time I checked the subsequent invasions were still frowned upon.

Incidentally, Russian ethnic minorities, or even local majorities, are in non-Russian countries because of the Soviet policy of Russification. Having moved tens of thousands of Russians into areas of the USSR where they weren't previously; to then use them as an excuse to re-invade is stretching the rationale by some considerable distance. So Moscow has created its own Casus Belli. Nice.

[Stones of granite]

So you answer questions with questions, but don't answer the questions.

Russia didn't start the conflict in the Ukraine. Why would they, when there was a pro-Russian government in place? The CIA orchestrated a coup to bring about regime change and install a pro-Western leadership, even if it was entirely corrupt. That's no surprise to anybody. That's what the CIA does. From the horse's mouth:

I don't need to answer your facile questions any more than I expect you to answer mine.

There is no evidence that the CIA orchestrated a coup in Ukraine. The evidence is that the population were sick of a corrupt Russian puppet and overthrew him themselves. It's no surprise that there was a degree of schadenfreude in the US or indeed the EU about it.

[Stones of granite]

So answer these questions:

Are ethnic Russians the majority in Crimea?

Did massacres of ethnic Russians occur during the civil war which followed the pro-Western coup in the Ukraine?

Would ethnic Russians wish to remain under a government which has massacred ethnic Russians?

Was there bloodshed during the Russian 'annexation' of its former territory Crimea?

Has there been bloodshed in America's wars on Afghanistan and Iraq?

Yes or no will suffice.

were there ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia and Poland?

Just asking, but last time I checked the subsequent invasions were still frowned upon.

There are many ethnic Russians in the Baltic states, so I suppose Rowan will be cheerleading for a Russian annexation of them next.

[Digby]

In fairness to Russia they've only shot down the one civilian plane in the Ukraine.

[Sandydragon]

In fairness to Russia they've only shot down the one civilian plane in the Ukraine.

They got a severe talking to at the UN Security Council a few years ago for shooting down a Georgian drone over international waters, which of course they denied despite a huge amount of evidence to the contrary.

Obviously no one died in the shooting down of a UAV, but its the thought that counts.

[Stones of granite]

In fairness to Russia they've only shot down the one civilian plane in the Ukraine.

True, and of course, using the "ethnic" excuse for an invasion does have historical precedent. For example, when the Soviet Union's ally at the time, Nazi Germany, invaded Poland, it was merely to establish a corridor to Danzig to protect ethnic Germans in East Prussia.

[Digby]

In fairness to Russia they've only shot down the one civilian plane in the Ukraine.

They got a severe talking to at the UN Security Council a few years ago for shooting down a Georgian drone over international waters, which of course they denied despite a huge amount of evidence to the contrary.

Obviously no one died in the shooting down of a UAV, but its the thought that counts.

They're not just confused by international waters and airspace either, even just the UK is used to weekly visits from planes and boats that aren't supposed to be here.

[Sandydragon]

Strangely, Im struggling to find any reliable evidence (i.e. not published by a pro-Russian outlet) regarding massacres of Russians in the Ukraine. But on another note, the plight of the Tartars in the Crimea under Russian rule has attracted interest. I suppose their fate is less important than the poor ethnic Russians who were used as an excuse by Moscow to reacquire a strategically vital naval facility (probably found that their attempts in Abkhazia to produce an appropriate naval facility just didn't work) and to destabilise a regional rival.

[Digby]

I think a lot of people would accept, I would anyway, that the Ukrainian borders as they are see a lot of people who more identify themselves as Russian, and that if the country moves politically away from Russia that's a reasonable cause for concern to them. It wasn't an issue in a wider Soviet block, but it is now.

[WaspInWales]

In fairness to Russia they've only shot down the one civilian plane in the Ukraine.

I thought the CIA did that...I'm sure I read it somewhere. Possibly here

[Sandydragon]

I think a lot of people would accept, I would anyway, that the Ukrainian borders as they are see a lot of people who more identify themselves as Russian, and that if the country moves politically away from Russia that's a reasonable cause for concern to them. It wasn't an issue in a wider Soviet block, but it is now.

I concur about a cause for concern, but as a justification for an invasion?

[rowan]

The Crimea is not only ethnic Russian majority, it voted overwhelmingly for a return to Russia in a referendum at a time when civil war was raging in the Ukraine and massacres of ethnic Russians were occurring. This was the result of a CIA-orchestrated coup which replaced a pro-Russian leader with a corrupt pro-Western oligarch.

The above information renders absurd all the ridiculous comparisons to the Nazis and invading the Balkans on the same pretext, etc. Did the Poles or the Czechs have an ethnic German majority which voted overwhelmingly to join Germany, and was a peaceful transfer arranged as a result?

In fact, it is the US, through NATO, which is 'invading' Eastern Europe and surrounding Russia with military bases, and all in violation of post-Cold War peace agreeements. & nobody knows for sure who shot down the civilian plane - but we do know the Ukranians have shot down a Russian passenger plane in the past.

The Tatars have legitimate grievances, as do 'native minorities' in the US, Australia, NZ and elsewhere. It should be noted that the Tatars are not actually native to the Crimea, however, and were preceded by Iranian and Greek communities, among others.

Pilger, as always, sums it up best: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ohn-pilger

[Digby]

I think a lot of people would accept, I would anyway, that the Ukrainian borders as they are see a lot of people who more identify themselves as Russian, and that if the country moves politically away from Russia that's a reasonable cause for concern to them. It wasn't an issue in a wider Soviet block, but it is now.

I concur about a cause for concern, but as a justification for an invasion?

No, not sufficient for that. And really there's no need either, not even close at this stage with so many political options on the table. They'd likely win any referendum quite easily, and given Russia would likely be happy with that it just seems daft even before the senseless loss of life.

[Sandydragon]

The Crimea is not only ethnic Russian majority, it voted overwhelmingly for a return to Russia in a referendum at a time when civil war was raging in the Ukraine and massacres of ethnic Russians were occurring. This was the result of a CIA-orchestrated coup which replaced a pro-Russian leader with a corrupt pro-Western oligarch.

The above information renders absurd all the ridiculous comparisons to the Nazis and invading the Balkans on the same pretext, etc. Did the Poles or the Czechs have an ethnic German majority which voted overwhelmingly to join Germany, and was a peaceful transfer arranged as a result?

In fact, it is the US, through NATO, which is 'invading' Eastern Europe and surrounding Russia with military bases, and all in violation of post-Cold War peace agreeements. & nobody knows for sure who shot down the civilian plane - but we do know the Ukranians have shot down a Russian passenger plane in the past.

The Tatars have legitimate grievances, as do 'native minorities' in the US, Australia, NZ and elsewhere. It should be noted that the Tatars are not actually native to the Crimea, however, and were preceded by Iranian and Greek communities, among others.

Pilger, as always, sums it up best: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ohn-pilger

The Russians aren't native to the Crimea either, but we have to care more about their provoked grievances?

And please, that referendum was a joke by any standard.

As for the Czechs, there is a pattern emerging with Putin. A Russian minority feel they are being persecuted and Putin uses it as an excuse. Hitler did much the same where German minorities were involved. Its a convenient excuse for intervention.

The Dutch findings pointed the finger firmly at Russian backed separatists, so I think we can be fairly confident on who shot down the plane, even if Putin continues to deny it.

Finally, has it occurred to you that the Eastern European governments have invited the US and NATO into their countries because they do not want to return to a period of Russian rule, having experienced how that works for much of the 20th century?

[Digby]

I was chatting to some Romanians earlier, and they're not exactly alarmed, but certainly cautious looking at the rise of Russian moves near the borders, and the rise of some pro Russian elements in neighbouring countries other than Russia. Worth nothing the Romanians I talk to tend to be young, or at least below 40, and very much in the professional classes, and there is a split in Romania between the professional middle class and those of a more blue collar background, and it's not easy to see how to bring the sides together, nor easy to see anyone even trying to do that.

[rowan]

Also a couple of Eastern European countries have recently voted in pro-Russian governments, which is what the Ukraine had done originally as well - before the CIA-backed coup. But comparing Russia's resistance to NATO expansion into Eastern Europe, in violation of post-Cold War agreements, to the actions of the Nazis is absolutely nonsensical and only demonstrated how much some people have been brainwashed with this good guy (US/UK), bad guy (Germany of the past/Russia of today) mentality. Right now nothing could be more ironic nor further than the truth. It is the US which has brought about the deaths of at least 20 million people since WWII, including at least 8 million Muslims in the past few decades, with the UK and other NATO members helping them every step of the way. Meanwhile the ethnic Russian-dominated Crimea votes overwhelmingly to return to Russia after a US-backed coup brings in a corrupt, anti-Russian oligarch, leading to civil war and massacres of ethnic Russians, and suddenly comparisons are being made to the Nazis. Of course, the only Nazis involved there were the Ukranian ones the CIA used as its shock troops while carrying out the coup in the first place. & if nobody here sees the comparisons between America's genocidal destruction of the Middle East and Hitler's army a few generations ago, they must be blind. The only difference is that Hitler did it to Europeans, and that's all that separates the Nazis from the British Empire and post WWII America. So what all this proves is how much Russia has been developed as a smokescreen for Western crimes. Start a thread about the ICC's accusations against the US Army and CIA and not a peep out of anyone. Mention Russia is withdrawing from the ICC (along with a number of African nations) because of perceived bias, and suddenly we get an avalanche of condemnations - about Russia...

[morepork]

You should post one of your hilarious memes to communicate the gravity of the situation.