RugbyRebels

...the 2020 General Election unless they cosy up to other 'progressive' parties such as the SNP and Liberals. This is according to the left wing think tank the Fabian Society.

I suppose the question is would the other parties be interested in playing nicely with Labour? UKIP obviously won't as they are after Labour seats in the North and those who control Labour now wouldn't stand for that. But would the leadership of Labour really agree to working with another party? The Greens are arguably not too far politically from where Labour currently is so could add an MP, or 2?. But the Liberals would surely be wary given that they must see the centre ground as their way back, i.e. wooing those voters who want to remain in the EU but who aren't attracted by Corbyn. The SNP might work with Corbyn, but the relationship would be an interesting one and standby for devolution referendum number 2 in pretty short order (which again might worry some Labour MPs who want to recapture their traditional safe seats.

So, can Corbyn make himself viable as a coalition partner? Or is he one of those figures who is just untouchable?

Corbyn would likely have to move a long way to his right to be able to form any sort of coalition. Labour might though get the Lid Dems to only target certain seats, the Greens and UKIP might already have to be somewhat targeted in the seat they go after and Labour could either not contest or run their we don't care if you lose candidates.

I don't really like the idea of national political parties deciding in advance not to run in certain areas cutting down on the choice to the electorate, then again I don't really like the FPP system either.

Sandydragon wrote:...the 2020 General Election unless they cosy up to other 'progressive' parties such as the SNP and Liberals. This is according to the left wing think tank the Fabian Society.

I suppose the question is would the other parties be interested in playing nicely with Labour? UKIP obviously won't as they are after Labour seats in the North and those who control Labour now wouldn't stand for that. But would the leadership of Labour really agree to working with another party? The Greens are arguably not too far politically from where Labour currently is so could add an MP, or 2?. But the Liberals would surely be wary given that they must see the centre ground as their way back, i.e. wooing those voters who want to remain in the EU but who aren't attracted by Corbyn. The SNP might work with Corbyn, but the relationship would be an interesting one and standby for devolution referendum number 2 in pretty short order (which again might worry some Labour MPs who want to recapture their traditional safe seats.

So, can Corbyn make himself viable as a coalition partner? Or is he one of those figures who is just untouchable?

I can see where you're coming from here, but Scottish Labour and the SNP are mortal enemies, and I can't see any of the current leading members of Scottish Labour going along with this (and probably not most of the SNP for that matter). The only exception, ironically enough, is Kezia Dugdale the current Scottish Labour leader, however, her jaicket has long been on the shoogly peg and I wouldn't be surprised to see her retire to Cooncil politics in the near future.

Stones of granite wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:...the 2020 General Election unless they cosy up to other 'progressive' parties such as the SNP and Liberals. This is according to the left wing think tank the Fabian Society.

I suppose the question is would the other parties be interested in playing nicely with Labour? UKIP obviously won't as they are after Labour seats in the North and those who control Labour now wouldn't stand for that. But would the leadership of Labour really agree to working with another party? The Greens are arguably not too far politically from where Labour currently is so could add an MP, or 2?. But the Liberals would surely be wary given that they must see the centre ground as their way back, i.e. wooing those voters who want to remain in the EU but who aren't attracted by Corbyn. The SNP might work with Corbyn, but the relationship would be an interesting one and standby for devolution referendum number 2 in pretty short order (which again might worry some Labour MPs who want to recapture their traditional safe seats.

So, can Corbyn make himself viable as a coalition partner? Or is he one of those figures who is just untouchable?

I can see where you're coming from here, but Scottish Labour and the SNP are mortal enemies, and I can't see any of the current leading members of Scottish Labour going along with this (and probably not most of the SNP for that matter). The only exception, ironically enough, is Kezia Dugdale the current Scottish Labour leader, however, her jaicket has long been on the shoogly peg and I wouldn't be surprised to see her retire to Cooncil politics in the near future.

I can't see a formal coalition between the SNP and labour, more a gentlemens agreement where the SNP support labour in votes of no confidence and budgets to allow a minority government to survive. In return another referendum with the timing and wording of SNP choice. I can see the SNP going for that, but less so Scottish labour.

Well Corbyn did hold one seat last night and kept out UKIP in the process, but lost the other to a Brexiting two term austerity government party. I've no idea if he still thinks he's the man for the job but unless Corbyn starts listening to people who don't agree with him this will only get worse, and might sadly already be too late.

It's too late already. Another leadership challenge would further undermine credibility and would only be winnable by someone of the same political persuasion. Without momentum, a caretaker could be elected who would be vaguely credible and keep some seats on 2020, but even if corbyn goes it will be someone else equally lacking in credibility until momentum is purged.

Corbyns only choice now, really the Lab partys only choice, is to keep Corbyn as leader for the next 10-15 years until the wheels of social perception go around another couple of turns and everyone forgets why they thought he was so awful.

Another leadership challenge will feck labour right up and pretty much commit the tories to power for another decade or so.

Could be good for lib dems tho.

One hopes Ed Milliband remains proud of his role in pandering to the unions and ushering in this new age of ineptitude

Donny osmond wrote:Corbyns only choice now, really the Lab partys only choice, is to keep Corbyn as leader for the next 10-15 years until the wheels of social perception go around another couple of turns and everyone forgets why they thought he was so awful.

Another leadership challenge will feck labour right up and pretty much commit the tories to power for another decade or so.

Could be good for lib dems tho.

I still wonder if many centralist labour MPs would be tempted by the liberals. Surely a closer fit than the current student union debating society currently masquerading as Her Majesty's Official Opposition.

Sandydragon wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:Corbyns only choice now, really the Lab partys only choice, is to keep Corbyn as leader for the next 10-15 years until the wheels of social perception go around another couple of turns and everyone forgets why they thought he was so awful.

Another leadership challenge will feck labour right up and pretty much commit the tories to power for another decade or so.

Could be good for lib dems tho.

I still wonder if many centralist labour MPs would be tempted by the liberals. Surely a closer fit than the current student union debating society currently masquerading as Her Majesty's Official Opposition.

I can't see people rushing to join a party led by a man no one can remember. But we might see a new party emerge as with the SDP that draws from Labour, the Lib Dems and perhaps even pro European Tories

Digby wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:Corbyns only choice now, really the Lab partys only choice, is to keep Corbyn as leader for the next 10-15 years until the wheels of social perception go around another couple of turns and everyone forgets why they thought he was so awful.

Another leadership challenge will feck labour right up and pretty much commit the tories to power for another decade or so.

Could be good for lib dems tho.

I still wonder if many centralist labour MPs would be tempted by the liberals. Surely a closer fit than the current student union debating society currently masquerading as Her Majesty's Official Opposition.

I can't see people rushing to join a party led by a man no one can remember. But we might see a new party emerge as with the SDP that draws from Labour, the Lib Dems and perhaps even pro European Tories

There is a definite opening for such a party. A centralist, remainist party could pick up votes.

The conservatives will definitely have an overall majority after the next election unless they conclude the Brexit negotiations before the election (unlikely) and it's even more shit than I imagine (highly likely) AND the red tops tell the fuck-knuckles who voted for it that actually it's shit (never going to happen). No amount of doing deals with parties who are after all opposed to almost everything that Corbyn has put forward (such as it is) is going to change that fundamental arithmetic.

The real question is whether Labour has a future and whether Corbyn will jack it in after his drubbing in 2020. Even if he does can the membership be relied on not to vote for John McDonnell or some other true believer with no appeal in the country.

What is the point of the Labour Party? If you want a modern socialist party vote Green. If you want a centre left party vote Lib dem. If you're a racist northerner who thinks the world owes you a living, vote UKIP.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:The conservatives will definitely have an overall majority after the next election unless they conclude the Brexit negotiations before the election (unlikely) and it's even more shit than I imagine (highly likely) AND the red tops tell the fuck-knuckles who voted for it that actually it's shit (never going to happen). No amount of doing deals with parties who are after all opposed to almost everything that Corbyn has put forward (such as it is) is going to change that fundamental arithmetic.

The real question is whether Labour has a future and whether Corbyn will jack it in after his drubbing in 2020. Even if he does can the membership be relied on not to vote for John McDonnell or some other true believer with no appeal in the country.

What is the point of the Labour Party? If you want a modern socialist party vote Green. If you want a centre left party vote Lib dem. If you're a racist northerner who thinks the world owes you a living, vote UKIP.

The labour membership might need a few lessons in hard electoral reality before they get bored or see sense. The Labour Party does need to provide an answer to the riddle of what they are about. Their rise to power was based on a social-economic group that isn't what it was, and relying on middle class champagne socialists isn't going to get them that far. Blair saw where electoral success lay, but he became so badly tainted that it will take years before a Labour leader tries to ape that again.

Sandydragon wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:The conservatives will definitely have an overall majority after the next election unless they conclude the Brexit negotiations before the election (unlikely) and it's even more shit than I imagine (highly likely) AND the red tops tell the fuck-knuckles who voted for it that actually it's shit (never going to happen). No amount of doing deals with parties who are after all opposed to almost everything that Corbyn has put forward (such as it is) is going to change that fundamental arithmetic.

The real question is whether Labour has a future and whether Corbyn will jack it in after his drubbing in 2020. Even if he does can the membership be relied on not to vote for John McDonnell or some other true believer with no appeal in the country.

What is the point of the Labour Party? If you want a modern socialist party vote Green. If you want a centre left party vote Lib dem. If you're a racist northerner who thinks the world owes you a living, vote UKIP.

The labour membership might need a few lessons in hard electoral reality before they get bored or see sense. The Labour Party does need to provide an answer to the riddle of what they are about. Their rise to power was based on a social-economic group that isn't what it was, and relying on middle class champagne socialists isn't going to get them that far. Blair saw where electoral success lay, but he became so badly tainted that it will take years before a Labour leader tries to ape that again.

i think a drubbing at the general election and all points to it will do the job of getting rid of the fantasists. If not then we may see a new liberal party taking in some tory remainers, some new labourites and some lib dems who liked sitting at the big boys table.

Maybe. I'd not like to assume that considering how long it took for Kinnock to drag the party back from the brink last time.

On another note, how many moderate Labour MPs will be left standing afte 2020 with a potential pasting on the cards, aligned to boundary realignments and potential for deselection in between? Will there be enough for the Liberals to notice. How many tribal Labour voters will vote for them regardless, or will some shift to the Liberals (or Green?).

Also for the right of the labour party, the left/tories and lib dems agree on many issues there are some big divides, and getting them to unite in one party with a manifesto they'd all sign up to will be far from easy, and whilst Blair and Mandelson are moving into a void that others could occupy it's not likely to be made easier under their guidance no matter if they're right/wrong, they're simply toxic to a great many

Sandydragon wrote:Maybe. I'd not like to assume that considering how long it took for Kinnock to drag the party back from the brink last time.

On another note, how many moderate Labour MPs will be left standing afte 2020 with a potential pasting on the cards, aligned to boundary realignments and potential for deselection in between? Will there be enough for the Liberals to notice. How many tribal Labour voters will vote for them regardless, or will some shift to the Liberals (or Green?).

Surely if centrist politics is what the people want, the 'moderate' MPs would retain their seats and the communists will lose theirs...

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Maybe. I'd not like to assume that considering how long it took for Kinnock to drag the party back from the brink last time.

On another note, how many moderate Labour MPs will be left standing afte 2020 with a potential pasting on the cards, aligned to boundary realignments and potential for deselection in between? Will there be enough for the Liberals to notice. How many tribal Labour voters will vote for them regardless, or will some shift to the Liberals (or Green?).

Surely if centrist politics is what the people want, the 'moderate' MPs would retain their seats and the communists will lose theirs...

Do you honestly believe that most voters make that distinction at the ballot box? If voters don't want a labour government then they will lose seats, which will include labour MPs of all varieties. The specific threat to moderate MPs is from deselection.

Labour isn't offering centralist politics and thus their election campaign will be judged largely on what comes out of Corbyn's mouth.

Sandydragon wrote:

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Maybe. I'd not like to assume that considering how long it took for Kinnock to drag the party back from the brink last time.

On another note, how many moderate Labour MPs will be left standing afte 2020 with a potential pasting on the cards, aligned to boundary realignments and potential for deselection in between? Will there be enough for the Liberals to notice. How many tribal Labour voters will vote for them regardless, or will some shift to the Liberals (or Green?).

Surely if centrist politics is what the people want, the 'moderate' MPs would retain their seats and the communists will lose theirs...

Do you honestly believe that most voters make that distinction at the ballot box? If voters don't want a labour government then they will lose seats, which will include labour MPs of all varieties. The specific threat to moderate MPs is from deselection.

Labour isn't offering centralist politics and thus their election campaign will be judged largely on what comes out of Corbyn's mouth.

I couldn't care less - I'm an accelerationist

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Zhivago wrote:
Surely if centrist politics is what the people want, the 'moderate' MPs would retain their seats and the communists will lose theirs...

Do you honestly believe that most voters make that distinction at the ballot box? If voters don't want a labour government then they will lose seats, which will include labour MPs of all varieties. The specific threat to moderate MPs is from deselection.

Labour isn't offering centralist politics and thus their election campaign will be judged largely on what comes out of Corbyn's mouth.

I couldn't care less - I'm an accelerationist

I'm a massist. Together we could create a great force.

And another by-election looms with the passing of Gerald Kaufman. It should be safe...

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:And another by-election looms with the passing of Gerald Kaufman. It should be safe...

A 24K majority and one of the few labour MPs to increase his share of the vote at the last election. Rock solid I would suggest, even with the loss of a popular MP and the Corbyn effect, this should be a safe seat. The question is by how much the margin drops...

Sandydragon wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:And another by-election looms with the passing of Gerald Kaufman. It should be safe...

A 24K majority and one of the few labour MPs to increase his share of the vote at the last election. Rock solid I would suggest, even with the loss of a popular MP and the Corbyn effect, this should be a safe seat. The question is by how much the margin drops...

And while everyone focuses on the Her Majesty's Opposition so much, the government can get away with their chaotic and destructive policies.

Sandydragon wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:And another by-election looms with the passing of Gerald Kaufman. It should be safe...

A 24K majority and one of the few labour MPs to increase his share of the vote at the last election. Rock solid I would suggest, even with the loss of a popular MP and the Corbyn effect, this should be a safe seat. The question is by how much the margin drops...

no way Kaufman could have been happy with Corbyn, which isn't going to help. anyone know if Labour are running a sane candidate or a Corbyn fan?

Stones of granite wrote:

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
Do you honestly believe that most voters make that distinction at the ballot box? If voters don't want a labour government then they will lose seats, which will include labour MPs of all varieties. The specific threat to moderate MPs is from deselection.

Labour isn't offering centralist politics and thus their election campaign will be judged largely on what comes out of Corbyn's mouth.

I couldn't care less - I'm an accelerationist

I'm a massist. Together we could create a great force.

The physicists are rolling in the aisles.