RugbyRebels

Looks like the military in Zimbabwe has attempted a coup overnight
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-africa-41994362

Roundup from the BBC

10:24
What we know so far

Here is a mid-morning round up of the key points from Zimbabwe, where the army has taken control overnight.

Maj Gen Sibusiso Moyo appeared on state television saying the army had taken control temporarily while they target "criminals around [President Robert Mugabe] who are committing crimes... that are causing social and economic suffering in the country"
The move came after Mr Mugabe sacked his deputy, Emmerson Mnangagwa, in favour of his wife, Grace
The Mugabes were safe, he added, as he emphasised this was "not a coup"
A number of arrests have been made, including Zanu-PF youth wing leader and Finance Minister Ignatius Chombo
There is calm in Harare, despite the presence of troops on the streets.

Okay, so maybe not so much of a coup, as the military getting rid of people Mugabe doesn't like anymore...

Which Tyler wrote:Roundup from the BBC

10:24
What we know so far

Here is a mid-morning round up of the key points from Zimbabwe, where the army has taken control overnight.

Maj Gen Sibusiso Moyo appeared on state television saying the army had taken control temporarily while they target "criminals around [President Robert Mugabe] who are committing crimes... that are causing social and economic suffering in the country"
The move came after Mr Mugabe sacked his deputy, Emmerson Mnangagwa, in favour of his wife, Grace
The Mugabes were safe, he added, as he emphasised this was "not a coup"
A number of arrests have been made, including Zanu-PF youth wing leader and Finance Minister Ignatius Chombo
There is calm in Harare, despite the presence of troops on the streets.

Okay, so maybe not so much of a coup, as the military getting rid of people Mugabe doesn't like anymore...

Despite the window dressing, it looks pretty much like a coup to me. Mugabe isn't the issue, it's his wife. The Army appear to have moved to block her and will keep Mugabe as a puppet for a short while before he is replace by the Army's preferred successor.

Stones of granite wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:Roundup from the BBC

10:24
What we know so far

Here is a mid-morning round up of the key points from Zimbabwe, where the army has taken control overnight.

Maj Gen Sibusiso Moyo appeared on state television saying the army had taken control temporarily while they target "criminals around [President Robert Mugabe] who are committing crimes... that are causing social and economic suffering in the country"
The move came after Mr Mugabe sacked his deputy, Emmerson Mnangagwa, in favour of his wife, Grace
The Mugabes were safe, he added, as he emphasised this was "not a coup"
A number of arrests have been made, including Zanu-PF youth wing leader and Finance Minister Ignatius Chombo
There is calm in Harare, despite the presence of troops on the streets.

Okay, so maybe not so much of a coup, as the military getting rid of people Mugabe doesn't like anymore...

Despite the window dressing, it looks pretty much like a coup to me. Mugabe isn't the issue, it's his wife. The Army appear to have moved to block her and will keep Mugabe as a puppet for a short while before he is replace by the Army's preferred successor.

This

Mugabe is one of the few ‘freedom fighters’ From the colonial period still alive. The army can’t just do him in. What it can do is sideline him and this coup looks like doing just that. Mugabe might stay in some kind of office, but I expect the power to be elsewhere now.

Considering that Mugabe turned Zimbabwe from the bread basket of Africa to basket case in a couple of decades, it’s about time he went.

Sandydragon wrote:Mugabe is one of the few ‘freedom fighters’ From the colonial period still alive. The army can’t just do him in. What it can do is sideline him and this coup looks like doing just that. Mugabe might stay in some kind of office, but I expect the power to be elsewhere now.

Considering that Mugabe turned Zimbabwe from the bread basket of Africa to basket case in a couple of decades, it’s about time he went.

It's beginning to look like his recently deposed vice president will be installed. With the nickname "crocodile", this guy taking power might not be much of an improvement.

Stones of granite wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Mugabe is one of the few ‘freedom fighters’ From the colonial period still alive. The army can’t just do him in. What it can do is sideline him and this coup looks like doing just that. Mugabe might stay in some kind of office, but I expect the power to be elsewhere now.

Considering that Mugabe turned Zimbabwe from the bread basket of Africa to basket case in a couple of decades, it’s about time he went.

It's beginning to look like his recently deposed vice president will be installed. With the nickname "crocodile", this guy taking power might not be much of an improvement.

He's the former Military leader isn't he, hence his sway with them, Mugabeis under house arrest, I don't think he will play much part from now on which is nice, but as you say things are unlikely to change drastically.

Any one heard from Sarge yet? Any tanks gone missing?

Stones of granite wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Mugabe is one of the few ‘freedom fighters’ From the colonial period still alive. The army can’t just do him in. What it can do is sideline him and this coup looks like doing just that. Mugabe might stay in some kind of office, but I expect the power to be elsewhere now.

Considering that Mugabe turned Zimbabwe from the bread basket of Africa to basket case in a couple of decades, it’s about time he went.

It's beginning to look like his recently deposed vice president will be installed. With the nickname "crocodile", this guy taking power might not be much of an improvement.

Turns out my son’s teacher is from Zimbabwe - I’d always assumed she was a Saffa. Most of the people she knows are pretty certain this ‘crocodile’ chap is no better than Mr Mugabe.

I'm telling ye MP, there's better things to do in retirement that spend it in an African jail.

Stones of granite wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Mugabe is one of the few ‘freedom fighters’ From the colonial period still alive. The army can’t just do him in. What it can do is sideline him and this coup looks like doing just that. Mugabe might stay in some kind of office, but I expect the power to be elsewhere now.

Considering that Mugabe turned Zimbabwe from the bread basket of Africa to basket case in a couple of decades, it’s about time he went.

It's beginning to look like his recently deposed vice president will be installed. With the nickname "crocodile", this guy taking power might not be much of an improvement.

Very possible. He has the backing of the war veterans who aren’t exactly moderate either.

So Mugabe clings on. Seems like it’s only a matter of time before he is removed.

cashead wrote:Apparently he's all set to resign, or face impeachment if he refuses. Good fucking riddance, nothing of value was lost, etc.

Totally agree, the hero worship directed at this fucker was sickening. My only hope is the replacement isn't worse!

Leading the revolution that overthrew white rule didn't entitle him to hero worship in your books? How interesting. No wonder you were so deadset against South Africa hosting the World Cup.

rowan wrote:Leading the revolution that overthrew white rule didn't entitle him to hero worship in your books? How interesting. No wonder you were so deadset against South Africa hosting the World Cup.

The ethnic cleansing and mis management that followed put him firmly in the malicious despot category. His exploits in overthrowing the previous Rhodesian government mean many overlooked his subsequent failing.

As for your second sentence, don't be a twat.

rowan wrote:Leading the revolution that overthrew white rule didn't entitle him to hero worship in your books?

No it didn't and there is precious little to worship about a 'hero' who allowed a prosperous country to descend into the slough of destitution while he and his family got fat and rich. He is nothing more than a typical African kleptocrat, although I accept he has somewhat atypically held on to power considerably longer than most. I see his successor being no different.

And before you assume any different, this is not an argument for a return to white minority rule - though I was sitting at the back of a senate debate in Freetown when the motion to request a return of the colonial power was narrowly defeated.

So often the case, regrettably. Hero leads rebellion, overthrows tyrants, does good things for a while, then refuses to step down when his time is done, thus becoming a tyrant himself.

There are some decent actions in Mugabe's history, but one could observe certain actions that are decent in most people's lives, on balance he's a disgusting and brutal dictator. Seeing as it's not remotely clear anything has yet changed I'm not excited about what's happening, we might just be seeing the swapping out of one arsehole to be replaced with another

So the hapless one stumbles in like a drunkard with no clue as to the context of what is actually being discussed here. The original comment about hero worship was phrased in the past tense, and Mugabe was most definitely a hero of Zimbabwe's past, as he led the successful revolution against the nation's white rulers, in spite of the best efforts of Apartheid South Africa and Thatcher's Britain to prevent that from occurring. During his term as PM he oversaw a great many positive changes, but as president he descended rapidly into the realms of tyranny himself and has managed to hold onto power for fully three decades. He might even have continued right up until his death had he not sacked his deputy and lined up his entirely unqualified 52-year-old wife Gucci Grace to take over. This proved too much even for the military which has backed him all these years.

Digby wrote:There are some decent actions in Mugabe's history, but one could observe certain actions that are decent in most people's lives, on balance he's a disgusting and brutal dictator. Seeing as it's not remotely clear anything has yet changed I'm not excited about what's happening, we might just be seeing the swapping out of one arsehole to be replaced with another

He had the opportunity to make Zimbabwe a successful country onc he took power. Instead he chose tribalism and cronyism. I agree, on balance good riddance.

He was real hero having 10's of thousands of people massacred for the crime of belonging to the wrong tribe. The Ndebele call it the Gukuruhundi.

Seems very weird watching Zimbabwe politicians celebrating his departure. What do they think is going to happen now?

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Donny osmond wrote:Seems very weird watching Zimbabwe politicians celebrating his departure. What do they think is going to happen now?

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Agreed. Car crash television.

Stones of granite wrote:He was real hero having 10's of thousands of people massacred for the crime of belonging to the wrong tribe. The Ndebele call it the Gukuruhundi.

A little history for you: Cecil Rhodes and the British South African Company routed the Ndebele with Maxim machine guns and artillery fire in 1893, killing countless spear-wielding warriors, in what would be described as "one of the most brilliant episodes in the history of British colonisation in Southern Africa." Rhodes, a thief and a murderer, and a gangster who stole countries rather than knocked over banks, ordered no quarter and insisted on personally counting the African dead, urged his men to ‘Wipe them all out, everything black,’ Robert Baden-Powell, future founder of the Boy Scouts, acknowledged the ‘extraordinary bloodthirsty rage of our men.’ The Ndebele and Shona revolts of 1896-1897, known as the first Chimurenga, were put down with considerable brutality and bloodshed. Settler rule was successfully imposed on the country. In the end, the black majority in Rhodesia were left to overthrow settler rule themselves in a protracted guerilla war, the second Chimurenga, that only finally came to an end in 1979.

So for you it's obviously a black and white issue. Mugabe slaughtered innocent people, therefore bad, and should not be remembered as a hero of a rebellion which overthrew an even more oppressive and murderous regime - backed by Britain. In which case you should view Churchill - for instance - as an evil mass-murderer as well, and by no means a hero, on account of his horrific crimes in North Africa, the Middle East, India and elsewhere, which included turning a blind eye to the Bengali famine which killed millions, and testing out chemical weapons on the Kurds. In fact, Britain and its masters in Washington have committed crimes this century which dwarf all of Mugabe's combined, and we should therefore regard these two regimes as completely and utterly evil - by your method of evaluation. In which case I might be inclined to agree with you.

rowan wrote:

Stones of granite wrote:He was real hero having 10's of thousands of people massacred for the crime of belonging to the wrong tribe. The Ndebele call it the Gukuruhundi.

A little history for you: Cecil Rhodes and the British South African Company routed the Ndebele with Maxim machine guns and artillery fire in 1893, killing countless spear-wielding warriors, in what would be described as "one of the most brilliant episodes in the history of British colonisation in Southern Africa." Rhodes, a thief and a murderer, and a gangster who stole countries rather than knocked over banks, ordered no quarter and insisted on personally counting the African dead, urged his men to ‘Wipe them all out, everything black,’ Robert Baden-Powell, future founder of the Boy Scouts, acknowledged the ‘extraordinary bloodthirsty rage of our men.’ The Ndebele and Shona revolts of 1896-1897, known as the first Chimurenga, were put down with considerable brutality and bloodshed. Settler rule was successfully imposed on the country. In the end, the black majority in Rhodesia were left to overthrow settler rule themselves in a protracted guerilla war, the second Chimurenga, that only finally came to an end in 1979.

So for you it's obviously a black and white issue. Mugabe slaughtered innocent people, therefore bad, and should not be remembered as a hero of a rebellion which overthrew an even more oppressive and murderous regime - backed by Britain. In which case you should view Churchill - for instance - as an evil mass-murderer as well, and by no means a hero, on account of his horrific crimes in North Africa, the Middle East, India and elsewhere, which included turning a blind eye to the Bengali famine which killed millions, and testing out chemical weapons on the Kurds. In fact, Britain and its masters in Washington have committed crimes this century which dwarf all of Mugabe's combined, and we should therefore regard these two regimes as completely and utterly evil - by your method of evaluation. In which case I might be inclined to agree with you.

That makes it all right then. Mugabe IS actually a hero for murdering 10's of thousands of his own people because it has been done before by the British. I take it all back.

You must be really pleased that another mass-murdering hero, Mnangagwa, who organised many of the Ndebele killings, is set to take over. Another proper hero.