RugbyRebels

So, the European qualification for the RWC has entirely fallen apart in spectacular fashion.

It started by Romania losing to Spain in the Rugby Europe Championship, which doubles as the main Euro qualifying tournament for RWC 2019. That left Spain just needing to beat Germany (who are imploding due to internal strife) and Belgium. They managed the first, but not the second, in a massive upset. Romania qualified as Europe 1 by the skin of their teeth, Spain had to go into the repechage to meet Samoa and Canada and all was proceeding as normal.

What complicated the situation is that the referee and touch judges for the Belgium vs Spain were all Romanian. Spain made a formal request to have the officials changed when it became clear that the game would be crucial, but Rugby Europe declined to change them on the basis that they'd been set in advance and it wasn't necessary. This was shortly after World Rugby set a precedent by removing Marius van der Westhuizen from being touch judge for England vs Ireland after he had attended an England training camp, on the basis that any perceived conflict of interest could not be allowed to stand and it was better to just swap out the official. To add a layer to this, the head of Rugby Europe and the man who made the decision is Octavian Morariu - Romanian and former president of the Romanian Rugby Federation.

Spain had a penalty count of 25-7 in their game against Belgium, the independent match commissioner has written a report noting “two or three actions” which had a notable impact on the game and there having been a “continual bias” from Iordachescu, and World Rugby's refereeing bosscAlain Rolland has allegedly noted that "Iordachescu will not return to officiating matches at that level”. Spain have appealed to Rugby Europe to have the game with Belgium replayed of which no decision has been made as yet. To make things more fun, several of Spain's players are under investigation for unsavory scenes after the final whistle where they confronted the referee and made their opinions on his performance felt.

But wait, there's more. Russia have now become involved and pointed out that one of Romania's nationalised Tongans actually represented Tonga 7s in an official tournament back in 2013, making him ineligible to play for Romania and have requested "clarification" from World Rugby about why Rugby Europe didn't question his registration. This has now been followed by Germany dobbing in Belgium after reading a newspaper interview with one of their players who talked about his qualification for Belgium coming from his great-grandmother, also missed entirely by Rugby Europe.

World Rugby have subsequently realised that Rugby Europe appear incapable of organising a piss-up in a brewery and have stepped in to take over the whole situation, eligibility rows and refereeing issues and all. There was a precedent set very recently - Tahiti fielded an ineligible player in their qualifying win over Cook Islands, and the judgement saw them removed from qualifying and Cook Islands progressing in their place. The same should, in theory, happen automatically to Romania and Belgium (not that Belgium were ever in danger of qualifying) and save World Rugby the thorny question of whether to replay the Belgium vs Spain game.

However, Germany have now apparently decided that, if their off the field issues are going to take them down, they may as well take everyone else with them and has raised question over a couple of players on the Spanish team who played for France U20s. Both are Spanish qualified, but France U20s sometimes captured players and sometimes didn't, depending on whether they were operating an A team that year and whether they played against Wales U20s or not. It appears that both of these players did play against Wales U20s, in a year where there was no A team and so, technically, Spain have fielded ineligible players as well, which should see them disqualified.

This would leave the exciting situation where Russia (finishing 3rd in qualifying) would come first and go to the RWC (to play the opening game against Japan, no less), and Germany, who finished rank bottom and can barely put out a team at the moment due to their union's civil war with their main club owner and all his players, would go through to the next round of qualifying despite getting thumped by all and sundry.

However, just to muddy the waters further, the rules on U20s capturing were set down by the Steven Shingler case, where a key part of the World Rugby judgement was that Shingler had been made aware by Wales U20s that playing for them in that game would tie him to Wales. France did not do that, possibly because they weren't sure themselves due to their unnecessarily complicated second team decisions, and so Belie and Fuster did not know. World Rugby's own regulations say that it is the responsibility of the player to know whether they are tied or not, but the fact that they used Shingler's knowledge as part of their case in setting the precedent now means that it's a consideration. To knot things up further, it is alleged that the Spanish union actually pre-emptively cleared Belie with World Rugby before picking him, which means that they have already gone against their regulations already. And to make it more fun, U20s teams now can no longer tie players in, so the rule isn't relevant going forwards, but isn't officially applied retroactively.

I suspect in an ideal world, World Rugby would love to sweep the whole thing under the carpet, declare that they were fining people but not disqualifying anyone and organise a play-off between Romania and Spain to shut everyone up. However, they can't do that, because not two weeks ago they disqualified Tahiti, a result which no-one would have particularly cared about previously, but has now tied their hands as to what they can do. Effectively, now no-one is qualifying on merit - it's down to who World Rugby feels like punishing or not punishing and what legal loopholes they feel like applying.

Frankly, I am waiting for the inevitable revelation that Russia are being disqualified for some reason, leaving Germany to qualify despite barely having a functioning team.

Puja

Georgia must hate having nowhere to play but with these clowns.

Whether you agree with the qualification regulations or not, they are not that complicated. There’s just no excuse for anyone to select a non-qualified player.

Puja wrote:
so Belie and Fuster did not know. World Rugby's own regulations say that it is the responsibility of the player to know whether they are tied or not,

Puja

I did about five mins of reading up on this s**t show before getting bored. One fact I did glean is that at the time of their U20s appearance(s) it was the national governing body’s responsibility to inform the player if they were captured.

What we have to remember is that a lot of these unions are run by amateurs - I think that’s now pretty obvious to all - and this will lead to mistakes. Why World Rugby can’t have a central database of who is capitured by which country, I don’t know.

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:
so Belie and Fuster did not know. World Rugby's own regulations say that it is the responsibility of the player to know whether they are tied or not,

Puja

I did about five mins of reading up on this s**t show before getting bored. One fact I did glean is that at the time of their U20s appearance(s) it was the national governing body’s responsibility to inform the player if they were captured.

What we have to remember is that a lot of these unions are run by amateurs - I think that’s now pretty obvious to all - and this will lead to mistakes. Why World Rugby can’t have a central database of who is capitured by which country, I don’t know.

Where did you come across that fact? All I could find was Regulation 8, which says that it's the player's responsibility to know whether a match captures them.

If that's the rule, then it simplifies the matter greatly - Romania disqualified and Spain through without having to address any questions of whether the ref threw the game or if it should be replayed. Ref or no ref, Spain choked - it should never have been close enough for the ref to decide - and I don't think the IRB particularly want to set a precedent of replaying matches because of the ref.

Rugby Europe is due to be "restructured" by the IRB after they've dealt with this debacle, so hopefully there will be less of this amateur hour administration, at least at the top of the game in the continent.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:
so Belie and Fuster did not know. World Rugby's own regulations say that it is the responsibility of the player to know whether they are tied or not,

Puja

I did about five mins of reading up on this s**t show before getting bored. One fact I did glean is that at the time of their U20s appearance(s) it was the national governing body’s responsibility to inform the player if they were captured.

What we have to remember is that a lot of these unions are run by amateurs - I think that’s now pretty obvious to all - and this will lead to mistakes. Why World Rugby can’t have a central database of who is capitured by which country, I don’t know.

Where did you come across that fact? All I could find was Regulation 8, which says that it's the player's responsibility to know whether a match captures them.

Puja

Can't remember. Think I just googled ‘rugby s**t show’. From what I read and from what I remember - I was close to my boredom threshold at this point - the Spanish governing body and the player can’t be held accountable if you follow the line of that at the point of their u20 ‘capture’ it was the FFR’s responsibility to inform the player they were ‘captured’ and I’d assume the players will say the were not told. I say all this assuming the new reg isn’t retrospective. I’ve also a feeling that the piece said that one of the players wasn’t actually captured as the oppo u20 wasn’t the nominated capture team for that union.

Hope that makes sense. Not sure I even understand what I wrote.

So are they going to replay the game or not? Sets a bad precedent - despite the surrounding clusterfuck all that will be remembered is that you can challenge the ref and get the game replayed.

To be fair, France don't know how eligibility really works at any level. Didn't they try and call up David Smith for the 6 Nations two years ago?

Peej wrote:So are they going to replay the game or not? Sets a bad precedent - despite the surrounding clusterfuck all that will be remembered is that you can challenge the ref and get the game replayed.

To be fair, France don't know how eligibility really works at any level. Didn't they try and call up David Smith for the 6 Nations two years ago?

They did and he actually turned up at training with an, "I thought I wasn't eligible because of this," on his lips. Lucky for them that he did!

I will be astounded if the game is replayed - Romania are dead to rights on the eligibility with the only question being if Spain are too, so there'll be no chance of Romania qualifying anyway. Frankly, I'm shocked that the IRB made the statement that they were in favour of the replay when they clearly didn't have to - you'd've thought they'd be fighting desperately to avoid having to make a decision on such a thorny subject, but instead of using their get-out-of-jail-free card, they've torn it up.

Puja