RugbyRebels

So, do we allow ISIS fighters and their families back to the UK? Most are British citizens and don’t have another nationality, so we probably have to allow them to come back. But then it gets trickier. What evidence of crimes do we have, given that evidence collection will be almost impossible. For the child brides, it’s even harder as they haven’t taken up arms (probably) but have given aid to an enemy (although ISIS was never legally declared as such).

But, if they come back to the UK and cannot be deradicalised they we will be stuck with the cost of monitoring them for years to come.

The children who are currently stuck inSyria are of course innocents and there should be a way to protect them. But should we take the stance that the parents have made their bed and should now lie in it, a bit like the approach the Belgians appear to have taken?

It’s a right buggers middle but do we safeguard ourselves or the rights of those who left to support ISIS?

If our laws are outdated and don't do what we want that's our problem, if they're British Isles and present to come back I don't see we've a choice

Sandydragon wrote:So, do we allow ISIS fighters and their families back to the UK? Most are British citizens and don’t have another nationality, so we probably have to allow them to come back. But then it gets trickier. What evidence of crimes do we have, given that evidence collection will be almost impossible. For the child brides, it’s even harder as they haven’t taken up arms (probably) but have given aid to an enemy (although ISIS was never legally declared as such).

But, if they come back to the UK and cannot be deradicalised they we will be stuck with the cost of monitoring them for years to come.

The children who are currently stuck inSyria are of course innocents and there should be a way to protect them. But should we take the stance that the parents have made their bed and should now lie in it, a bit like the approach the Belgians appear to have taken?

It’s a right buggers middle but do we safeguard ourselves or the rights of those who left to support ISIS?

I assume that she can appeal the decision through the courts? What's more worrying is that the decision seems to have been heavily influenced by media coverage. That's no way to run a justice system.

Thus far about 400 people have returned. I do feel that the debate around Begum has been polarised by the media coverage, previous returnees have just done so quietly. She is much less of a risk than many.

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:So, do we allow ISIS fighters and their families back to the UK? Most are British citizens and don’t have another nationality, so we probably have to allow them to come back. But then it gets trickier. What evidence of crimes do we have, given that evidence collection will be almost impossible. For the child brides, it’s even harder as they haven’t taken up arms (probably) but have given aid to an enemy (although ISIS was never legally declared as such).

But, if they come back to the UK and cannot be deradicalised they we will be stuck with the cost of monitoring them for years to come.

The children who are currently stuck inSyria are of course innocents and there should be a way to protect them. But should we take the stance that the parents have made their bed and should now lie in it, a bit like the approach the Belgians appear to have taken?

It’s a right buggers middle but do we safeguard ourselves or the rights of those who left to support ISIS?

I assume that she can appeal the decision through the courts? What's more worrying is that the decision seems to have been heavily influenced by media coverage. That's no way to run a justice system.

It's clearly Javid attempting to court the mob with an eye towards a leadership bid. Not good at all.

Puja

Sandydragon wrote:Thus far about 400 people have returned. I do feel that the debate around Begum has been polarised by the media coverage, previous returnees have just done so quietly. She is much less of a risk than many.

Even JRM was defending her right to return. If that doesn't tell you how far our politics is being pulled to the right, I don't know what does.

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Thus far about 400 people have returned. I do feel that the debate around Begum has been polarised by the media coverage, previous returnees have just done so quietly. She is much less of a risk than many.

Even JRM was defending her right to return. If that doesn't tell you how far our politics is being pulled to the right, I don't know what does.

I didn’t know that. I feel dirty now for agreeing with him.

Ive got no issue with the lot of them returning to dangle at the end of a rope. Otherwise I'd fuck the lot off.

The issue that I'm not seeing a lot of people address is the physical logistics of what happens to her if we don't want her. If we say, "She's not our problem," then whose problem is she? We don't recognise ISIS as an authority (and they'll be gone soon anyway), she definitely shouldn't be Syria's problem, and Bangladesh understandably don't want anything to do with her.

Our current strategy of ignoring her till she goes away effectively keeps her being a refugee that Syria does not have the resources to look after, because we're quite happy to tip our problems off onto someone else who we don't mind upsetting. That seems to sum up 2019 Britain.

Puja

Her newborn child is British. Under EU law the primary caregiver of an EU citizen has the right of abode in an EU country. So even if Javid is able to make the revocation of the mother’s citizenship stick he still appears to not understand the law as it currently stands.

To be fair, this supposedly inward looking nation is the biggest donor to refugee camps in the region so, vicariously, we are looking after her. I’m mostly joking but you get my point about doing down ‘2019 Britain’.

My natural instinct is that we bring her back, but every time she opens her mouth to say she doesn’t regret her actions etc etc I’m less inclined to think we should. It’s the kid I feel sorry for.

canta_brian wrote:Her newborn child is British. Under EU law the primary caregiver of an EU citizen has the right of abode in an EU country. So even if Javid is able to make the revocation of the mother’s citizenship stick he still appears to not understand the law as it currently stands.

It's not about keeping her out though - it's about making a public stand that Sajid Javid Is Tough On Dark People Terrorism. He'll even get extra points for it if he's trying to protect our beloved country, but is thwarted by meddling EU laws prioritising "human rights" over the safety of ordinary, decent, white British people.

Puja

Puja wrote:

canta_brian wrote:Her newborn child is British. Under EU law the primary caregiver of an EU citizen has the right of abode in an EU country. So even if Javid is able to make the revocation of the mother’s citizenship stick he still appears to not understand the law as it currently stands.

It's not about keeping her out though - it's about making a public stand that Sajid Javid Is Tough On Dark People Terrorism. He'll even get extra points for it if he's trying to protect our beloved country, but is thwarted by meddling EU laws prioritising "human rights" over the safety of ordinary, decent, white British people.

Puja

Well quite.

He has proved to be an utter ball bag since he got the home sec gig.

Mellsblue wrote:To be fair, this supposedly inward looking nation is the biggest donor to refugee camps in the region so, vicariously, we are looking after her. I’m mostly joking but you get my point about doing down ‘2019 Britain’.

My natural instinct is that we bring her back, but every time she opens her mouth to say she doesn’t regret her actions etc etc I’m less inclined to think we should. It’s the kid I feel sorry for.

In terms of actual pounds of percentage of GDP? Cause I'm willing to bet Syria's putting a bigger percentage of her GDP behind looking after EU citizens that came over specifically to fuck up their country than any EU nation is. Plus the 1% aid budget is a legacy of better times - it's consistently under attack from the right and it'll surely go with the next election as the Tories lurch further over that way.

Agreed with you on her public pronouncements. She's clearly thick as two short planks if she can't work out her best route to getting out is to be as milquetoast as possible. Mind, her development and education were basically frozen in her early teens, so I guess that's not surprising.

Puja

canta_brian wrote:

Puja wrote:

canta_brian wrote:Her newborn child is British. Under EU law the primary caregiver of an EU citizen has the right of abode in an EU country. So even if Javid is able to make the revocation of the mother’s citizenship stick he still appears to not understand the law as it currently stands.

It's not about keeping her out though - it's about making a public stand that Sajid Javid Is Tough On Dark People Terrorism. He'll even get extra points for it if he's trying to protect our beloved country, but is thwarted by meddling EU laws prioritising "human rights" over the safety of ordinary, decent, white British people.

Puja

Well quite.

He has proved to be an utter ball bag since he got the home sec gig.

I genuinely can't think of him without my brain conjuring up these image of him looking like a twat:





Which actually helps me a lot.

Puja

Puja wrote:

canta_brian wrote:

Puja wrote:
It's not about keeping her out though - it's about making a public stand that Sajid Javid Is Tough On Dark People Terrorism. He'll even get extra points for it if he's trying to protect our beloved country, but is thwarted by meddling EU laws prioritising "human rights" over the safety of ordinary, decent, white British people.

Puja

Well quite.

He has proved to be an utter ball bag since he got the home sec gig.

I genuinely can't think of him without my brain conjuring up these image of him looking like a twat:





Which actually helps me a lot.

Puja

Puja wrote:
Do we need to get the porn spambots back again for you?

Puja

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:To be fair, this supposedly inward looking nation is the biggest donor to refugee camps in the region so, vicariously, we are looking after her. I’m mostly joking but you get my point about doing down ‘2019 Britain’.

My natural instinct is that we bring her back, but every time she opens her mouth to say she doesn’t regret her actions etc etc I’m less inclined to think we should. It’s the kid I feel sorry for.

In terms of actual pounds of percentage of GDP? Cause I'm willing to bet Syria's putting a bigger percentage of her GDP behind looking after EU citizens that came over specifically to fuck up their country than any EU nation is. Plus the 1% aid budget is a legacy of better times - it's consistently under attack from the right and it'll surely go with the next election as the Tories lurch further over that way.

Agreed with you on her public pronouncements. She's clearly thick as two short planks if she can't work out her best route to getting out is to be as milquetoast as possible. Mind, her development and education were basically frozen in her early teens, so I guess that's not surprising.

Puja

As far as I’m aware Syria is doing feck all to fund refugee camps in the region. It is, however, doing a cracking job of increasing visitor numbers. Strange way of looking at it, though. I’m also not sure of the logic behind the EU citizens line, which seems an even stranger way of looking at it.
As long as the foreign aid budget is still policy I’ll stick to defending it, being a fan of facts over conjecture and speculation. If that policy changes I’ll happily call us wankers. As it stands, we are second/third in the world in foreign state aid - I think us and ze Germans swap places dependent on GDP - we are the second biggest contributors to NATO - which as Rowan is no longer here I can safely say is a force for good - and we are, of course, the fifth biggest contributor to the UN as the fifth largest economy. Inward looking ****s.

Stones of granite wrote:

Puja wrote:

canta_brian wrote:
Well quite.

He has proved to be an utter ball bag since he got the home sec gig.

I genuinely can't think of him without my brain conjuring up these image of him looking like a twat:





Which actually helps me a lot.

Puja

Puja wrote:
Do we need to get the porn spambots back again for you?

Puja

Morph porn?!?!? That’s a new low.

Mellsblue wrote:As long as the foreign aid budget is still policy I’ll stick to defending it, being a fan of facts over conjecture and speculation. If that policy changes I’ll happily call us wankers. As it stands, we are second/third in the world in foreign state aid - I think us and ze Germans swop places dependent on GDP - we are the second biggest contributors to NATO - which as Rowan is no longer here I can safely say is a force for good - and we are, of course, the fifth biggest contributor to the UN as the fifth largest economy. Inward looking ****s.

Not unfair - I am worried about the direction the Overton Window is going with the Brexit extremists looking to take over the Conservatives and a large portion of the media cheering them on, but I guess you're right that it hasn't actually changed yet.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:As long as the foreign aid budget is still policy I’ll stick to defending it, being a fan of facts over conjecture and speculation. If that policy changes I’ll happily call us wankers. As it stands, we are second/third in the world in foreign state aid - I think us and ze Germans swop places dependent on GDP - we are the second biggest contributors to NATO - which as Rowan is no longer here I can safely say is a force for good - and we are, of course, the fifth biggest contributor to the UN as the fifth largest economy. Inward looking ****s.

Not unfair - I am worried about the direction the Overton Window is going with the Brexit extremists looking to take over the Conservatives and a large portion of the media cheering them on, but I guess you're right that it hasn't actually changed yet.

Puja

I’m worried, too. I’m a Conservative member and quite an active one. I’ve had plenty of discussions about what happens if JRM or someone of his ilk becomes leader of the party.......not sure I’d hang around too long.

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:As long as the foreign aid budget is still policy I’ll stick to defending it, being a fan of facts over conjecture and speculation. If that policy changes I’ll happily call us wankers. As it stands, we are second/third in the world in foreign state aid - I think us and ze Germans swop places dependent on GDP - we are the second biggest contributors to NATO - which as Rowan is no longer here I can safely say is a force for good - and we are, of course, the fifth biggest contributor to the UN as the fifth largest economy. Inward looking ****s.

Not unfair - I am worried about the direction the Overton Window is going with the Brexit extremists looking to take over the Conservatives and a large portion of the media cheering them on, but I guess you're right that it hasn't actually changed yet.

Puja

I’m worried, too. I’m a Conservative member and quite an active one. I’ve had plenty of discussions about what happens if JRM or someone of his ilk becomes leader of the party.......not sure I’d hang around too long.

Me too.

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:As long as the foreign aid budget is still policy I’ll stick to defending it, being a fan of facts over conjecture and speculation. If that policy changes I’ll happily call us wankers. As it stands, we are second/third in the world in foreign state aid - I think us and ze Germans swop places dependent on GDP - we are the second biggest contributors to NATO - which as Rowan is no longer here I can safely say is a force for good - and we are, of course, the fifth biggest contributor to the UN as the fifth largest economy. Inward looking ****s.

Not unfair - I am worried about the direction the Overton Window is going with the Brexit extremists looking to take over the Conservatives and a large portion of the media cheering them on, but I guess you're right that it hasn't actually changed yet.

Puja

I’m worried, too. I’m a Conservative member and quite an active one. I’ve had plenty of discussions about what happens if JRM or someone of his ilk becomes leader of the party.......not sure I’d hang around too long.

There's always the Chukka Umunna party?

Puja

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:
Not unfair - I am worried about the direction the Overton Window is going with the Brexit extremists looking to take over the Conservatives and a large portion of the media cheering them on, but I guess you're right that it hasn't actually changed yet.

Puja

I’m worried, too. I’m a Conservative member and quite an active one. I’ve had plenty of discussions about what happens if JRM or someone of his ilk becomes leader of the party.......not sure I’d hang around too long.

There's always the Chukka Umunna party?

Puja

Would quite like to see some policies first! ATM, they just seem to be a Brexit protest group/the People’s Vote Party. Plus, I’d rather he wasn’t leader, even if that seems inevitable. I’ve never warmed to him. He’s far too condescending and sanctimonious. Reminds me of Gove when he was SoS for Education, ie I don’t necessarily disagree with what he’s saying but the delivery is far too much ‘I’m cleverer than you so listen and learn’.
I don’t tend to trust people like that as leaders as I think it shows, at best, a tin ear or, at worst, hidden flaws.......both flunked their run at the leadership in a spectacular way; though, Gove seems to have learnt his lesson.
All that wibbling done, if they do evolve into a party and recent, liberal in takes of Con MP’s move across it would be a no brainer for me.

Bangladesh have fucked her off. Looks like we're stuck with the cunt. Give her a council house in Kelty she'll soon leave again.

OptimisticJock wrote:Bangladesh have fucked her off. Looks like we're stuck with the cunt. Give her a council house in Kelty she'll soon leave again.

Too generous, I’d send her to High Valleyfield or Methil. Mind, she’d likely feel at home in Methil after a refugee camp in Syria.