RugbyRebels

All because of a real estate dispute in Sheikh Jarrah. What an over-reaction by Hamas/Palestinians.

You might think that..

...or maybe 'real estate dispute' is just a euphemism for the sinister ethnic cleansing that's going on.

Details like this

"Israeli police vehicles, known as “skunk trucks”, have been spraying Palestinian homes, shops, restaurants, public spaces and cultural institutions with putrid water at high pressure."

paint a bit different picture than just a 'real estate dispute'.

I thought Jared Kushner sorted that shit with his real estate ponzi scheme?

But they are defending themselves - ad nauseam

those running the conflict are utter arseholes, on both sides. there are no fine people involved

Digby wrote:those running the conflict are utter arseholes, on both sides. there are no fine people involved

That's the problem with this conflict - it's so easy to "both sides" it, when in fact it's massively asymmetrical. Israel have a modern army, one of the world's best missile defence and anti-rocket systems, and complete control over the utilities, services, police, and judiciary of an occupied territory. Hamas have crude rockets.

That's not to say that Hamas aren't utter arseholes, but Israel are running a system of apartheid that is currently cheerfully enacting forced ethnic relocation (a war crime merrily referred to in press releases as "a real estate dispute" and "evictions") and then engaging in punitive bombing of civilians to punish a terrorist group. I believe the official civilian death toll is 12:1 Palestinians:Israeli. Both sides may be arseholes, but it's far from an even contest.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:those running the conflict are utter arseholes, on both sides. there are no fine people involved

That's the problem with this conflict - it's so easy to "both sides" it, when in fact it's massively asymmetrical. Israel have a modern army, one of the world's best missile defence and anti-rocket systems, and complete control over the utilities, services, police, and judiciary of an occupied territory. Hamas have crude rockets.

That's not to say that Hamas aren't utter arseholes, but Israel are running a system of apartheid that is currently cheerfully enacting forced ethnic relocation (a war crime merrily referred to in press releases as "a real estate dispute" and "evictions") and then engaging in punitive bombing of civilians to punish a terrorist group. I believe the official civilian death toll is 12:1 Palestinians:Israeli. Both sides may be arseholes, but it's far from an even contest.

Puja

You're right, its not an even contest. Perhaps they should nominate some knights and have a joust?

Hamas know what will happen but repeat the same tactics anyway. They know that firing from a densely populated area will result in Palestinian casualties when the Israelis retaliate.

Israel doesn't give a toss really and will target anything that vaguely looks like it might be a target and ignore collateral damage.

Both sides are lead by clowns who benefit form the violence. Netanyahu is trying to regain the premiership so a tough guy response gets him votes. Hamas know that enmity to Israel will keep them on the right side of their supporters.

Both sides should be talking to resolve this - there is a solution that came very close 20 years ago and whilst attitudes have hardened on both sides, its still viable.

Hamas might know their stance against Israel will keep them on the right side of the right sort of supporter, but much of this is because Hamas is so unpopular, and in a recent pretence at democracy Hamas wasn't shown to be universally loved and has responded to it with all the emotional intelligence of Trump, basically part of this is Hamas damping down the huge numbers of 'their' constituents hugely unhappy with the financial focus on terrorism as the main economical underpinning of their region

So it's easy to loathe Hamas, but then one comes back to the problem the leaders on the other side are total arseholes too, and total arseholes with much more funding and thus arguably much more responsible. Both sides can very easily point out nobody would accept the sort of behaviour they get from the other, and they're right

None of which is to come close to saying I've got a good idea about what to do next. It is possible the USA can be persuaded to take less of an interest, but that just creates a possibility for Russia and or China to assert more control over the regions nations, so even the possibility (and for now it's slim anyway) of getting the USA to tamp down on support for Israel isn't a problem free route forward

Digby wrote:Hamas might know their stance against Israel will keep them on the right side of the right sort of supporter, but much of this is because Hamas is so unpopular, and in a recent pretence at democracy Hamas wasn't shown to be universally loved and has responded to it with all the emotional intelligence of Trump, basically part of this is Hamas damping down the huge numbers of 'their' constituents hugely unhappy with the financial focus on terrorism as the main economical underpinning of their region

So it's easy to loathe Hamas, but then one comes back to the problem the leaders on the other side are total arseholes too, and total arseholes with much more funding and thus arguably much more responsible. Both sides can very easily point out nobody would accept the sort of behaviour they get from the other, and they're right

None of which is to come close to saying I've got a good idea about what to do next. It is possible the USA can be persuaded to take less of an interest, but that just creates a possibility for Russia and or China to assert more control over the regions nations, so even the possibility (and for now it's slim anyway) of getting the USA to tamp down on support for Israel isn't a problem free route forward

Violence justifies the violence. A grown up US President would look to work with Arab partners in the region to put pressure on both sides. Tell Israel that the military subsidies that the US provides (not as important these days but still important) will be stopped. Threaten a trade ban etc. Make it clear that they have to talk. Netanyahu will hate it as will the Israeli right. Equally, the Arab states make it clear to the Palestinian leadership that they no longer have any support. No more missiles (these aren't home made things).

Force both sides to the negotiating table and make it clear that neither has won or lost, but both need to grow up. And make Jerusalem an open city, probably under UN control for the foreseeable future. Its too powerful a symbol for both sides.

External forces have made this conflict worse over the decades, but it will need external pressure to resolve it. But anything that makes either side think that their current tactics are working will just be counter productive in the long run.

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:Hamas might know their stance against Israel will keep them on the right side of the right sort of supporter, but much of this is because Hamas is so unpopular, and in a recent pretence at democracy Hamas wasn't shown to be universally loved and has responded to it with all the emotional intelligence of Trump, basically part of this is Hamas damping down the huge numbers of 'their' constituents hugely unhappy with the financial focus on terrorism as the main economical underpinning of their region

So it's easy to loathe Hamas, but then one comes back to the problem the leaders on the other side are total arseholes too, and total arseholes with much more funding and thus arguably much more responsible. Both sides can very easily point out nobody would accept the sort of behaviour they get from the other, and they're right

None of which is to come close to saying I've got a good idea about what to do next. It is possible the USA can be persuaded to take less of an interest, but that just creates a possibility for Russia and or China to assert more control over the regions nations, so even the possibility (and for now it's slim anyway) of getting the USA to tamp down on support for Israel isn't a problem free route forward

Violence justifies the violence. A grown up US President would look to work with Arab partners in the region to put pressure on both sides. Tell Israel that the military subsidies that the US provides (not as important these days but still important) will be stopped. Threaten a trade ban etc. Make it clear that they have to talk. Netanyahu will hate it as will the Israeli right. Equally, the Arab states make it clear to the Palestinian leadership that they no longer have any support. No more missiles (these aren't home made things).

Force both sides to the negotiating table and make it clear that neither has won or lost, but both need to grow up. And make Jerusalem an open city, probably under UN control for the foreseeable future. Its too powerful a symbol for both sides.

External forces have made this conflict worse over the decades, but it will need external pressure to resolve it. But anything that makes either side think that their current tactics are working will just be counter productive in the long run.

If there were grown ups on either side who could be turned to I could see some chance for progress, but the leadership construct seems to be entirely overtired emotionally crippled toddlers who have to share a brain cell

Digby wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:Hamas might know their stance against Israel will keep them on the right side of the right sort of supporter, but much of this is because Hamas is so unpopular, and in a recent pretence at democracy Hamas wasn't shown to be universally loved and has responded to it with all the emotional intelligence of Trump, basically part of this is Hamas damping down the huge numbers of 'their' constituents hugely unhappy with the financial focus on terrorism as the main economical underpinning of their region

So it's easy to loathe Hamas, but then one comes back to the problem the leaders on the other side are total arseholes too, and total arseholes with much more funding and thus arguably much more responsible. Both sides can very easily point out nobody would accept the sort of behaviour they get from the other, and they're right

None of which is to come close to saying I've got a good idea about what to do next. It is possible the USA can be persuaded to take less of an interest, but that just creates a possibility for Russia and or China to assert more control over the regions nations, so even the possibility (and for now it's slim anyway) of getting the USA to tamp down on support for Israel isn't a problem free route forward

Violence justifies the violence. A grown up US President would look to work with Arab partners in the region to put pressure on both sides. Tell Israel that the military subsidies that the US provides (not as important these days but still important) will be stopped. Threaten a trade ban etc. Make it clear that they have to talk. Netanyahu will hate it as will the Israeli right. Equally, the Arab states make it clear to the Palestinian leadership that they no longer have any support. No more missiles (these aren't home made things).

Force both sides to the negotiating table and make it clear that neither has won or lost, but both need to grow up. And make Jerusalem an open city, probably under UN control for the foreseeable future. Its too powerful a symbol for both sides.

External forces have made this conflict worse over the decades, but it will need external pressure to resolve it. But anything that makes either side think that their current tactics are working will just be counter productive in the long run.

If there were grown ups on either side who could be turned to I could see some chance for progress, but the leadership construct seems to be entirely overtired emotionally crippled toddlers who have to share a brain cell

Reap what we sow - the international community has spent decades teaching that Israel will not face consequences, no matter how many human rights laws they break or war crimes they commit and teaching Hamas that no-one will pay attention to the plight of the Palestinians except when they're violently resisting. Then we wonder why there's no moderates in power.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Violence justifies the violence. A grown up US President would look to work with Arab partners in the region to put pressure on both sides. Tell Israel that the military subsidies that the US provides (not as important these days but still important) will be stopped. Threaten a trade ban etc. Make it clear that they have to talk. Netanyahu will hate it as will the Israeli right. Equally, the Arab states make it clear to the Palestinian leadership that they no longer have any support. No more missiles (these aren't home made things).

Force both sides to the negotiating table and make it clear that neither has won or lost, but both need to grow up. And make Jerusalem an open city, probably under UN control for the foreseeable future. Its too powerful a symbol for both sides.

External forces have made this conflict worse over the decades, but it will need external pressure to resolve it. But anything that makes either side think that their current tactics are working will just be counter productive in the long run.

If there were grown ups on either side who could be turned to I could see some chance for progress, but the leadership construct seems to be entirely overtired emotionally crippled toddlers who have to share a brain cell

Reap what we sow - the international community has spent decades teaching that Israel will not face consequences, no matter how many human rights laws they break or war crimes they commit and teaching Hamas that no-one will pay attention to the plight of the Palestinians except when they're violently resisting. Then we wonder why there's no moderates in power.

Puja

We have leant that way on Israel, but we've also shown the Hamas leadership there's no consequences to their behaviour too more than it being there's no consequences to the plight of the Palestinians. It's not like Hamas give a shit about 'their' people

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

If there were grown ups on either side who could be turned to I could see some chance for progress, but the leadership construct seems to be entirely overtired emotionally crippled toddlers who have to share a brain cell

Reap what we sow - the international community has spent decades teaching that Israel will not face consequences, no matter how many human rights laws they break or war crimes they commit and teaching Hamas that no-one will pay attention to the plight of the Palestinians except when they're violently resisting. Then we wonder why there's no moderates in power.

Puja

We have leant that way on Israel, but we've also shown the Hamas leadership there's no consequences to their behaviour too more than it being there's no consequences to the plight of the Palestinians. It's not like Hamas give a shit about 'their' people

Without condoning murder and terrorism, I do see Hamas's point sometimes - if your people are going to be regularly beaten, murdered, and forcefully displaced by the police of the nation that's occupying you whether they're peaceful or not, I can understand the decision to get some vengeance in. It's futile, self-defeating, and murderous, but I can see why people would.

Good thing I don't have any ambitions to be a leader of the Labour party, huh.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
Reap what we sow - the international community has spent decades teaching that Israel will not face consequences, no matter how many human rights laws they break or war crimes they commit and teaching Hamas that no-one will pay attention to the plight of the Palestinians except when they're violently resisting. Then we wonder why there's no moderates in power.

Puja

We have leant that way on Israel, but we've also shown the Hamas leadership there's no consequences to their behaviour too more than it being there's no consequences to the plight of the Palestinians. It's not like Hamas give a shit about 'their' people

Without condoning murder and terrorism, I do see Hamas's point sometimes - if your people are going to be regularly beaten, murdered, and forcefully displaced by the police of the nation that's occupying you whether they're peaceful or not, I can understand the decision to get some vengeance in. It's futile, self-defeating, and murderous, but I can see why people would.

Good thing I don't have any ambitions to be a leader of the Labour party, huh.

Puja

We should form a new party! Considering where we came from, we could call it HAMMYS.

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
Reap what we sow - the international community has spent decades teaching that Israel will not face consequences, no matter how many human rights laws they break or war crimes they commit and teaching Hamas that no-one will pay attention to the plight of the Palestinians except when they're violently resisting. Then we wonder why there's no moderates in power.

Puja

We have leant that way on Israel, but we've also shown the Hamas leadership there's no consequences to their behaviour too more than it being there's no consequences to the plight of the Palestinians. It's not like Hamas give a shit about 'their' people

Without condoning murder and terrorism, I do see Hamas's point sometimes - if your people are going to be regularly beaten, murdered, and forcefully displaced by the police of the nation that's occupying you whether they're peaceful or not, I can understand the decision to get some vengeance in. It's futile, self-defeating, and murderous, but I can see why people would.

Good thing I don't have any ambitions to be a leader of the Labour party, huh.

Puja

I can see why people in Palestine would think and act as they do too, but that also holds for Israel, and round and round we go

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:
We have leant that way on Israel, but we've also shown the Hamas leadership there's no consequences to their behaviour too more than it being there's no consequences to the plight of the Palestinians. It's not like Hamas give a shit about 'their' people

Without condoning murder and terrorism, I do see Hamas's point sometimes - if your people are going to be regularly beaten, murdered, and forcefully displaced by the police of the nation that's occupying you whether they're peaceful or not, I can understand the decision to get some vengeance in. It's futile, self-defeating, and murderous, but I can see why people would.

Good thing I don't have any ambitions to be a leader of the Labour party, huh.

Puja

I can see why people in Palestine would think and act as they do too, but that also holds for Israel, and round and round we go

Yes, but the difference is that my empathy for Hamas is based around their desperation and hardship, whereas my understanding for Israel's actions is that I understand the greed of people. They don't *need* to forcibly displace the Palestinians from Sheikh Jarrah and create Israeli occupied settlements - they're doing it because they want that land and no-one is able/willing to stop them.

At one point, Israel were the abused party, declared war on by every surrounding nation and fighting for their existence. Now, they have the most powerful military in the region by a significant distance and are secure against nearly all forms of attack - the news talks that over a thousand rockets were shot into Israel, but doesn't mention that only 4 of them have actually made it through Israel's missile defence "iron dome". They not only control their own borders, but have de-facto control of all of Palestine's security, utilities, and borders. They have international support and control on the ground to the extent that no-one's even talking about a two-state solution anymore, just about whether Palestine is going to be entirely wiped out or not. Both sides were at fault for most of the conflict's history - it's really not an equal split now.

Puja

And yet, and for all I have no admiration whatsoever for Israel's land grabs or wanton destruction, nobody in my estimation accepts rockets being fired into their cities.

We've two groups who are among the most put upon in the history of humanity, and both still seem so puerile, vindictive and frankly pathetic it's hard to have sympathy with either, other than it's far more the respective leaderships than the people

Can someone explain to me what is the difference between Hamas and IDF? Why is one a terrorist organisation and the other an army? Is it purely because Israel is a state and Palestine isn't? Or am I missing something?

Or I should say, why is Hamas a terrorist organisation, but Haganah (the predecessor of the IDF) is described as a paramilitary organisation?

I would say that both are terrorists, and just because Haganah became IDF through statehood, it hasn't really become less terrorist in its actions, just more legitimized.

Both groups target civilians in order to achieve their goals through fear.

Digby wrote:And yet, and for all I have no admiration whatsoever for Israel's land grabs or wanton destruction, nobody in my estimation accepts rockets being fired into their cities.

We've two groups who are among the most put upon in the history of humanity, and both still seem so puerile, vindictive and frankly pathetic it's hard to have sympathy with either, other than it's far more the respective leaderships than the people

The difference is that one is not just winning, but has actively won and is working on grinding the other into the dust. The rockets aren't coming ex nihilo.

Puja

Plus getting your children, friends, and relatives shot while observing a religious event at church does tend to raise the red mist a bit.

Zhivago wrote:Can someone explain to me what is the difference between Hamas and IDF? Why is one a terrorist organisation and the other an army? Is it purely because Israel is a state and Palestine isn't? Or am I missing something?

Or I should say, why is Hamas a terrorist organisation, but Haganah (the predecessor of the IDF) is described as a paramilitary organisation?

I would say that both are terrorists, and just because Haganah became IDF through statehood, it hasn't really become less terrorist in its actions, just more legitimized.

Both groups target civilians in order to achieve their goals through fear.

Legitimized by PR

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:And yet, and for all I have no admiration whatsoever for Israel's land grabs or wanton destruction, nobody in my estimation accepts rockets being fired into their cities.

We've two groups who are among the most put upon in the history of humanity, and both still seem so puerile, vindictive and frankly pathetic it's hard to have sympathy with either, other than it's far more the respective leaderships than the people

The difference is that one is not just winning, but has actively won and is working on grinding the other into the dust. The rockets aren't coming ex nihilo.

Puja

Indeed, the rockets are coming because of terrorism

And I doubt Israel would agree it's won, apart from anything else there isn't a plateau and only the constant slog up the mountain, and the ongoing attacks against Israel both as part of this latest and otherwise are easily cited by Israel as them still being under attack.

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:And yet, and for all I have no admiration whatsoever for Israel's land grabs or wanton destruction, nobody in my estimation accepts rockets being fired into their cities.

We've two groups who are among the most put upon in the history of humanity, and both still seem so puerile, vindictive and frankly pathetic it's hard to have sympathy with either, other than it's far more the respective leaderships than the people

The difference is that one is not just winning, but has actively won and is working on grinding the other into the dust. The rockets aren't coming ex nihilo.

Puja

Indeed, the rockets are coming because of terrorism

And I doubt Israel would agree it's won, apart from anything else there isn't a plateau and only the constant slog up the mountain, and the ongoing attacks against Israel both as part of this latest and otherwise are easily cited by Israel as them still being under attack.

The constant slog up the mountain to where? Ownership of all the Palestinian land and the full expulsion of the Palestinian people?

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
The difference is that one is not just winning, but has actively won and is working on grinding the other into the dust. The rockets aren't coming ex nihilo.

Puja

Indeed, the rockets are coming because of terrorism

And I doubt Israel would agree it's won, apart from anything else there isn't a plateau and only the constant slog up the mountain, and the ongoing attacks against Israel both as part of this latest and otherwise are easily cited by Israel as them still being under attack.

The constant slog up the mountain to where? Ownership of all the Palestinian land and the full expulsion of the Palestinian people?

Puja

To nowhere, there isn't a plateau to be reached

And to repeat I'm no fan of Israel's actions in many instances, merely I'm no fan of Hamas either. Both sets of leadership are doing stupid things for bad reasons

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:
Indeed, the rockets are coming because of terrorism

And I doubt Israel would agree it's won, apart from anything else there isn't a plateau and only the constant slog up the mountain, and the ongoing attacks against Israel both as part of this latest and otherwise are easily cited by Israel as them still being under attack.

The constant slog up the mountain to where? Ownership of all the Palestinian land and the full expulsion of the Palestinian people?

Puja

To nowhere, there isn't a plateau to be reached

And to repeat I'm no fan of Israel's actions in many instances, merely I'm no fan of Hamas either. Both sets of leadership are doing stupid things for bad reasons

Can you forget about the leaders for once and just compare the fate of the little people?

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
The constant slog up the mountain to where? Ownership of all the Palestinian land and the full expulsion of the Palestinian people?

Puja

To nowhere, there isn't a plateau to be reached

And to repeat I'm no fan of Israel's actions in many instances, merely I'm no fan of Hamas either. Both sets of leadership are doing stupid things for bad reasons

Can you forget about the leaders for once and just compare the fate of the little people?

It’s no fun being under rocket or artillery bombardment. Whilst the Israelis have an advanced missile defence system that doesn’t mean those civilians under fire aren’t shitting themselves. Little people on both sides are being hurt. I think we can all acknowledge that.

Thankfully we have a likelihood of a ceasefire.