RugbyRebels

At the end of the season apparently: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59935852

Bit of a surprise, although I can't blame him for wanting to leave COVID island to go home. Saints will be poorer for him leaving - interesting to see they're thinking of promoting from within with one of Vesty or Dowson stepping up. I've heard excellent things about them as coaches, but never really thought of them in terms of the top job before.

Puja

Boyd's been good for Saints and good for the Premiership. He's got them playing an attractive style of rugby and has never shied away from giving young players a chance. You could argue they've lacked consistency, but the highs eclipse the lows for me.
Be nice to see home grown coaches promoted but Saints may decide a more experienced hand is still required. But who would be available?

fivepointer wrote:Boyd's been good for Saints and good for the Premiership. He's got them playing an attractive style of rugby and has never shied away from giving young players a chance. You could argue they've lacked consistency, but the highs eclipse the lows for me.
Be nice to see home grown coaches promoted but Saints may decide a more experienced hand is still required. But who would be available?

Vesty would seem the obvious step up, but I don't think he wants to be a head coach. Boyd has been good at development, less so on getting any sort of consistency- he's been very keen on rest and rotation, but that's challenging in the prem.

fivepointer wrote:Boyd's been good for Saints and good for the Premiership. He's got them playing an attractive style of rugby and has never shied away from giving young players a chance. You could argue they've lacked consistency, but the highs eclipse the lows for me.
Be nice to see home grown coaches promoted but Saints may decide a more experienced hand is still required. But who would be available?

Alex King could be a possibility? He coached Saints' backs a few years ago, didn't he?

Although the results haven't been all good under Boyd, I think his impact on the club will be positive long after he's gone. The end of the Mallinder era was brought about by heavy reliance on old favourites who were chronically under performing, whilst the youngsters were tearing it up in the A league. Boyd has been great at giving talented young English (and Scottish) plenty of game time and the environment to develop.

I think it's possible we may see Alan Dickens back to take the DOR role.

Ali Hepher to make a return and have a shot at the top job somewhere having been Baxter's number 2 for years?

Boyd has been an interesting appointment at Saints. He's taken the team far from the stagnating end to the Mallinder era, Saints are now a highly entertaining team to watch but success like consistency has eluded them. Doesn't really seem like Boyd knows how to bring that consistency to the side either. Can't blame him for wanting to return home given the Covid nightmare.

Dowson as DoR, vesty to head coach. Will be interesting to see who they bring in on the coaching team alongside them, suspect hopley might get a promotion

I do hope Dowson as DOR goes more the way of Borthwick and Skivington in terms of those with no previous experience of the top job, rather than a Murphy or Hooper. Time will tell.

Adam_P wrote:I do hope Dowson as DOR goes more the way of Borthwick and Skivington in terms of those with no previous experience of the top job, rather than a Murphy or Hooper. Time will tell.

Yeah, I'm hoping its definitely the former.

Adam_P wrote:I do hope Dowson as DOR goes more the way of Borthwick and Skivington in terms of those with no previous experience of the top job, rather than a Murphy or Hooper. Time will tell.

I think the most telling difference between those 4 are
Skivington 2 years Ealing Forwards coach, 1 year Samoa forwards coach, 4 years Forwards coach London Irish
Borthwick 1 year forwards assistant coach sarries, 3 years Japan forwards coach + 5 years England forwards

Compared too
Murphy 6 years Tigers assistant coach
Hooper 4 years Bath staff

Skivingon and Borthwick have coached in different environments for a significant period of time
Borthwick 9 years
Skivington 7 years
Before arriving at their current teams as Head Coaches.

Tigersman wrote:

Adam_P wrote:I do hope Dowson as DOR goes more the way of Borthwick and Skivington in terms of those with no previous experience of the top job, rather than a Murphy or Hooper. Time will tell.

I think the most telling difference between those 4 are
Skivington 2 years Ealing Forwards coach, 1 year Samoa forwards coach, 4 years Forwards coach London Irish
Borthwick 1 year forwards assistant coach sarries, 3 years Japan forwards coach + 5 years England forwards

Compared too
Murphy 6 years Tigers assistant coach
Hooper 4 years Bath staff

Skivingon and Borthwick have coached in different environments for a significant period of time
Borthwick 9 years
Skivington 7 years
Before arriving at their current teams as Head Coaches.

That's the nail on the head. Added into that is the fact that Skivington and Borthwick didn't play for Gloucester or Leicester respectively - they've got perspective of the world outside the club, experience in other environments, and no pre-existing ties and relationships pinning their hands.

Puja

Why couldn't you just let me live in hope!

Dowson had a season or two at Worcester...

Adam_P wrote:Why couldn't you just let me live in hope!

Dowson had a season or two at Worcester...

Dowson did also coach with England against the Barbarians, if that helps. Plus, it'll help that Boyd is going to be long-distance consulting.

Also, you joke about him being at Worcester for a season, but I think that will genuinely help. It's got to be easier to go from Dowson the player to Dowson the coach if you're not immediately coming into the same environment that you were playing in.

Puja

True. It can be hit or miss when coaches move straight into their role from the playing group.

At Quins it has eventually worked out well for Evans and Jones, but it definitely wasn’t instant and I think having others like Flannery and Millard there made a big difference. It definitely didn’t work for Easter when he was made defence coach, although he’s since gone on to develop a decent reputation in SA and with Falcons.

Sam Vesty is very highly rated but I can’t get his bogey eating incident out of my mind. As soon as I see his name, that’s all I can think of.

I do also hang some hope on the fact that this succession plan has been long in the making, so you'd think that Boyd has been mentoring Dowson over the last couple of seasons into that role.

Adam_P wrote:I do also hang some hope on the fact that this succession plan has been long in the making, so you'd think that Boyd has been mentoring Dowson over the last couple of seasons into that role.

So far, so reminiscent of Hooper at Bath, complete with Kiwi mentor

Adam_P wrote:I do also hang some hope on the fact that this succession plan has been long in the making, so you'd think that Boyd has been mentoring Dowson over the last couple of seasons into that role.

I've heard good things about Dowson (and Vesty), but DOR is (obviously) very different to a specialist coaching role and interesting that Vesty is being touted as head coach; need to figure out who does what in the DOR/Head Coach dynamic, esp as both are currently hands on coaches.

Tigersman wrote: I think the most telling difference between those 4 are
Skivington 2 years Ealing Forwards coach, 1 year Samoa forwards coach, 4 years Forwards coach London Irish
Borthwick 1 year forwards assistant coach sarries, 3 years Japan forwards coach + 5 years England forwards


Compared too
Murphy 6 years Tigers assistant coach
Hooper 4 years Bath staff
Skivingon and Borthwick have coached in different environments for a significant period of time
Borthwick 9 years
Skivington 7 years
Before arriving at their current teams as Head Coaches.

You've actually missed some critical dates on Borthwick here:

SB was in charge of Bristol for the B&I cup games on the 11th & 15th of December (2015). Against Bedford Blues - the Goldington Road finishing school pays off again!

Surprised Melsblue missed it to be honest!

jimKRFC wrote:

Tigersman wrote: I think the most telling difference between those 4 are
Skivington 2 years Ealing Forwards coach, 1 year Samoa forwards coach, 4 years Forwards coach London Irish
Borthwick 1 year forwards assistant coach sarries, 3 years Japan forwards coach + 5 years England forwards


Compared too
Murphy 6 years Tigers assistant coach
Hooper 4 years Bath staff
Skivingon and Borthwick have coached in different environments for a significant period of time
Borthwick 9 years
Skivington 7 years
Before arriving at their current teams as Head Coaches.

You've actually missed some critical dates on Borthwick here:

SB was in charge of Bristol for the B&I cup games on the 11th & 15th of December (2015). Against Bedford Blues - the Goldington Road finishing school pays off again!

Surprised Melsblue missed it to be honest!

I was sitting and waiting for this post!

Puja

jimKRFC wrote:

Tigersman wrote: I think the most telling difference between those 4 are
Skivington 2 years Ealing Forwards coach, 1 year Samoa forwards coach, 4 years Forwards coach London Irish
Borthwick 1 year forwards assistant coach sarries, 3 years Japan forwards coach + 5 years England forwards


Compared too
Murphy 6 years Tigers assistant coach
Hooper 4 years Bath staff
Skivingon and Borthwick have coached in different environments for a significant period of time
Borthwick 9 years
Skivington 7 years
Before arriving at their current teams as Head Coaches.

You've actually missed some critical dates on Borthwick here:

SB was in charge of Bristol for the B&I cup games on the 11th & 15th of December (2015). Against Bedford Blues - the Goldington Road finishing school pays off again!

Surprised Melsblue missed it to be honest!

It’s difficult to keep track of all the careers made by the Goldington Road Finishing School. Poor ol’ Borthers’ coaching career was obvs going nowhere until that point.

Adam_P wrote:I do hope Dowson as DOR goes more the way of Borthwick and Skivington in terms of those with no previous experience of the top job, rather than a Murphy or Hooper. Time will tell.

To be fair Murphy got thrown under the bus and whilst trying to crawl back to the curb got thrown under again, then the club sacked him. He still set up a development pathway the club are making good use of today though. A job in the media and after dinner speaking will probably suit Murphy really well, he could come back to coaching as a skills coach in the fullness of time though.

Hooper just doesn't seem cut out to be a coach and I can't see him getting media work. Possibly a non-rugby role awaits at Bath, as he seems to have some compromising pictures of Craig.

Saints seem to have a good set up, I think they'll do alright with though with no fresh impetus from a new voice I'm not sure how much will change.

FKAS wrote:

Adam_P wrote:I do hope Dowson as DOR goes more the way of Borthwick and Skivington in terms of those with no previous experience of the top job, rather than a Murphy or Hooper. Time will tell.

To be fair Murphy got thrown under the bus and whilst trying to crawl back to the curb got thrown under again, then the club sacked him. He still set up a development pathway the club are making good use of today though. A job in the media and after dinner speaking will probably suit Murphy really well, he could come back to coaching as a skills coach in the fullness of time though.

Hooper just doesn't seem cut out to be a coach and I can't see him getting media work. Possibly a non-rugby role awaits at Bath, as he seems to have some compromising pictures of Craig.

Saints seem to have a good set up, I think they'll do alright with though with no fresh impetus from a new voice I'm not sure how much will change.

Hooper is the DOR and Hatley the Head Coach. Does Hooper do any coaching? Genuine q- and one I always ask when there is both a DOR and a Head Coach.

Scrumhead wrote:
It definitely didn’t work for Easter when he was made defence coach, although he’s since gone on to develop a decent reputation in SA and with Falcons.

Based on watching him play for england, for all Easter's rugby brain, I'd have a hard time taking him seriously if he morphed from team mate to coach. I reckon he'd be fun to play alongside but unconvincing dishing out a bollocking.

Mr Mwenda wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:
It definitely didn’t work for Easter when he was made defence coach, although he’s since gone on to develop a decent reputation in SA and with Falcons.

Based on watching him play for england, for all Easter's rugby brain, I'd have a hard time taking him seriously if he morphed from team mate to coach. I reckon he'd be fun to play alongside but unconvincing dishing out a bollocking.

tricky to go from player to coach at the same club as soon as you stop playing. TBH I think my coaching would have been better had I gone to another club or coached the colts rather than straight to the 1st team- even though I got my badges before I stopped playing, so at least had done some groundwork and coached other teams, its still difficult.

Saints just confirmed Dowson to DOR and Vesty to Head Coach.