RugbyRebels

A raft of minor changes announced by Billy Beaufighter:

Law directives to speed up the game
Conversions must be taken within 90 seconds
Penalties to be taken within 60 seconds
Scrums to be formed within 30 seconds of mark being made
No time-wasting or coming to the lineout late – Free kick sanctions in either case
Underlining that TMO’s should only intervene on “clear and obvious offences”
Water can come onto the field when a try is scored – “Only in a game with no tries, should a natural stoppage be used”
Players must not support their bodyweight by placing their hands on the floor
Clarity over deliberate knock-ons
The latter two points come with clarifications, for example: “Players are off their feet when any other part of the body is supported by the ground or players on the ground”.
On the last point, World Rugby point to the existing laws: “3. A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.

“4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.”


https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/world-r ... rugbyworld

Are any of those actual law changes?
I guess scrums forming within a specified time is new - but everything else is more a clarification, surely

I like the clarification on the "deliberate knock-on." The conflation of deliberate slap-downs of the ball and a player being a bit too ambitious when going for an intercept always bothered me.

Also, I'd prefer something like "time off between scrum being called and ball being put in," but setting a time limit is something I can live with too.

That should make sealing off even more obvious. We shall see how this changes the game. Refs were supposed to give the scrum half the hurry up when kicking the ball away but we still get the lengthy caterpillar process repeated in games all the time.

Honestly, I feel like referees should have the ability to stop the clock until the set-piece of complete in the case of excessive fucking around by either side.

Good stuff,

For me, the most annoying time wasting/preventing quick play is when players don't hand over the ball straight away or walk off with it when they know damn well it's the other team's penalty or touch. Hopefully refs will take this seriously and either penalise it or move play 10m on (or even card players) as appropriate. (One of last weekend's refs was indeed taking no shit on this score and it was good to see).

Hard agree. Hate that shit. Honestly, repeat offences should be an automatic 10m march.

Completely agree with you both. Modern defences are too good to break down unless they are stressed by the pace of the attack. Anything that illegally allows the defence to gain a second or more should be penalised.

It seems to me that the 10m march is a modest penalty for fairly modest actions, and is greatly underused. In effect it should be a warning that a repeat of such action would result in a penalty.

I like any clarification to the "deliberate knock on" but I'm still not happy with it. How many times do we hear pundits - and even occasionally refs - state that had a scoring interception been unsuccessful, the player would have been carded (or vice versa)? Well if you believe that, then by definition they had a "reasonable expectation of gaining possession", didn't they? As I've said ever since the law came in; if you can't beat an onside defender with your pass, that's your fault, and a scrum is already more than you deserve. Now, if we want to address the offside line to get defenders out of passing channels, I'm here for that discussion all day; but otherwise, if a defender can get his hand to the ball from a legal position, fair enough. We shouldn't decide the LEGALITY of an action by its outcome. "Deliberate knock-on" should mean just that; a clear, deliberate infringement to gain (or negate) an advantage.

Sourdust wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:31 pm I like any clarification to the "deliberate knock on" but I'm still not happy with it. How many times do we hear pundits - and even occasionally refs - state that had a scoring interception been unsuccessful, the player would have been carded (or vice versa)? Well if you believe that, then by definition they had a "reasonable expectation of gaining possession", didn't they? As I've said ever since the law came in; if you can't beat an onside defender with your pass, that's your fault, and a scrum is already more than you deserve. Now, if we want to address the offside line to get defenders out of passing channels, I'm here for that discussion all day; but otherwise, if a defender can get his hand to the ball from a legal position, fair enough. We shouldn't decide the LEGALITY of an action by its outcome. "Deliberate knock-on" should mean just that; a clear, deliberate infringement to gain (or negate) an advantage.

Benefit of the doubt IMO. Two handed reach for the ball is a reasonable chance of getting the ball. One handed slap down isn’t.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:14 pm

Sourdust wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:31 pm I like any clarification to the "deliberate knock on" but I'm still not happy with it. How many times do we hear pundits - and even occasionally refs - state that had a scoring interception been unsuccessful, the player would have been carded (or vice versa)? Well if you believe that, then by definition they had a "reasonable expectation of gaining possession", didn't they? As I've said ever since the law came in; if you can't beat an onside defender with your pass, that's your fault, and a scrum is already more than you deserve. Now, if we want to address the offside line to get defenders out of passing channels, I'm here for that discussion all day; but otherwise, if a defender can get his hand to the ball from a legal position, fair enough. We shouldn't decide the LEGALITY of an action by its outcome. "Deliberate knock-on" should mean just that; a clear, deliberate infringement to gain (or negate) an advantage.

Benefit of the doubt IMO. Two handed reach for the ball is a reasonable chance of getting the ball. One handed slap down isn’t.

There are always going to be borderline cases but I'm usually fairly happy with the calls made by refs on this.

Offhand I can think of two instances - North v France 2021, and Hogg v Italy 2013(?), there will be plenty more - where the player goes for the ball one-handed with no "reasonable chance" of catching it, catches it anyway, and scores. If we're going to apply a judgement call on the "likelihood" of success, we really have to ignore whether or not success was actually achieved, because it doesn't affect the calculation. Making going for a one-handed catch illegal EVEN IF YOU CATCH IT makes things far simpler, clearer, fairer.

Or better still IMO, just forget the whole thing and award scrums for knock-ons, unless it's OBVIOUS that the player NEVER INTENDED (as opposed to WASN'T LIKELY) to catch the ball.

Sourdust wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:57 pm Offhand I can think of two instances - North v France 2021, and Hogg v Italy 2013(?), there will be plenty more - where the player goes for the ball one-handed with no "reasonable chance" of catching it, catches it anyway, and scores. If we're going to apply a judgement call on the "likelihood" of success, we really have to ignore whether or not success was actually achieved, because it doesn't affect the calculation. Making going for a one-handed catch illegal EVEN IF YOU CATCH IT makes things far simpler, clearer, fairer.

Or better still IMO, just forget the whole thing and award scrums for knock-ons, unless it's OBVIOUS that the player NEVER INTENDED (as opposed to WASN'T LIKELY) to catch the ball.

You don't want to encourage sticking an arm out to try and block a scoring pass though.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:44 pm

Sourdust wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:57 pm Offhand I can think of two instances - North v France 2021, and Hogg v Italy 2013(?), there will be plenty more - where the player goes for the ball one-handed with no "reasonable chance" of catching it, catches it anyway, and scores. If we're going to apply a judgement call on the "likelihood" of success, we really have to ignore whether or not success was actually achieved, because it doesn't affect the calculation. Making going for a one-handed catch illegal EVEN IF YOU CATCH IT makes things far simpler, clearer, fairer.

Or better still IMO, just forget the whole thing and award scrums for knock-ons, unless it's OBVIOUS that the player NEVER INTENDED (as opposed to WASN'T LIKELY) to catch the ball.

You don't want to encourage sticking an arm out to try and block a scoring pass though.

Puja

This is where it gets weird for me though. So many of these annoying ones recently are where a defender is blocking the passing lane before the attacker even lets go of the ball.

That’s a perfectly valid way to defend, IMO. The idea that a one-handed catch = not a real/likely attempt is stupid too.

I get that it’s difficult because a blatant slap-down is very rare, but the number of times we’ve seen attackers panic and fling a pass in to a defender, winning their team the advantage of a yellow card, is getting very annoying.

There are lots of issues in the game that involve clamping down on the leeway given to the attacking side, which goes kind of counter to what most of us want to see in the game, but as someone said above the biggest one would still be properly enforcing the offside line.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:20 am I get that it’s difficult because a blatant slap-down is very rare, but the number of times we’ve seen attackers panic and fling a pass in to a defender, winning their team the advantage of a yellow card, is getting very annoying.

I'm... not sure I've ever seen that happen - for an onside defender at least.
Whilst for offside defenders, it's not the knock-on that gets them penalised.

Oh, and the reason we don't see many deliberate slap downs (away from the tackle area at least, where we still see a fair few), is because it's a blatant yellow card offence - remove the deterrent, and we'll see a LOT more of them.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:08 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:20 am I get that it’s difficult because a blatant slap-down is very rare, but the number of times we’ve seen attackers panic and fling a pass in to a defender, winning their team the advantage of a yellow card, is getting very annoying.

I'm... not sure I've ever seen that happen - for an onside defender at least.
Whilst for offside defenders, it's not the knock-on that gets them penalised.

Same. If an attacker flings a pass into a defender, aren't they by definition in a position to catch it and therefore not penalised? I can't picture the image you're describing, Mikey, as all the yellows I've seen for this are for players lunging forwards to get in the way of a pass that's already left the hands.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:19 amSame. If an attacker flings a pass into a defender, aren't they by definition in a position to catch it and therefore not penalised? I can't picture the image you're describing, Mikey, as all the yellows I've seen for this are for players lunging forwards to get in the way of a pass that's already left the hands.

Be fair - there's also lazy defenders "accidentally" standing up, or wandering back, getting in the passing lane from the SH at ruck time - which are the only examples I can think of of an attacker panicking* and fling a pass in to a defender


* AKA, being pissed off about not being able to complete their chosen pass.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:33 am

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:19 amSame. If an attacker flings a pass into a defender, aren't they by definition in a position to catch it and therefore not penalised? I can't picture the image you're describing, Mikey, as all the yellows I've seen for this are for players lunging forwards to get in the way of a pass that's already left the hands.

Be fair - there's also lazy defenders "accidentally" standing up, or wandering back, getting in the passing lane from the SH at ruck time - which are the only examples I can think of of an attacker panicking* and fling a pass in to a defender


* AKA, being pissed off about not being able to complete their chosen pass.

That scenario deserves a penalty IMO

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:08 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:20 am I get that it’s difficult because a blatant slap-down is very rare, but the number of times we’ve seen attackers panic and fling a pass in to a defender, winning their team the advantage of a yellow card, is getting very annoying.

I'm... not sure I've ever seen that happen - for an onside defender at least.
Whilst for offside defenders, it's not the knock-on that gets them penalised.

Oh, and the reason we don't see many deliberate slap downs (away from the tackle area at least, where we still see a fair few), is because it's a blatant yellow card offence - remove the deterrent, and we'll see a LOT more of them.

I don’t know how you read that as me suggesting we remove the deterrent for blatant slap downs.

I wasn’t talking about offside players either (regarding ‘intentional knock ons’, more that it’s just a general issue with the game). The scenario I’m referring to is usually the second receiver getting the ball in midfield where the opposition 13 has rushed up trying to close down their options, blocking the passing lane for short and options and the ball over the top to the wing. If you haven’t seen this happen then I don’t know what to say.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:05 pm

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:08 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:20 am I get that it’s difficult because a blatant slap-down is very rare, but the number of times we’ve seen attackers panic and fling a pass in to a defender, winning their team the advantage of a yellow card, is getting very annoying.

I'm... not sure I've ever seen that happen - for an onside defender at least.
Whilst for offside defenders, it's not the knock-on that gets them penalised.

Oh, and the reason we don't see many deliberate slap downs (away from the tackle area at least, where we still see a fair few), is because it's a blatant yellow card offence - remove the deterrent, and we'll see a LOT more of them.

I don’t know how you read that as me suggesting we remove the deterrent for blatant slap downs.

I wasn’t talking about offside players either (regarding ‘intentional knock ons’, more that it’s just a general issue with the game). The scenario I’m referring to is usually the second receiver getting the ball in midfield where the opposition 13 has rushed up trying to close down their options, blocking the passing lane for short and options and the ball over the top to the wing. If you haven’t seen this happen then I don’t know what to say.

Thats good defensive tactics though. If the defence keeps doing that then the attack needs to adjust.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:05 pmThe scenario I’m referring to is usually the second receiver getting the ball in midfield where the opposition 13 has rushed up trying to close down their options, blocking the passing lane for short and options and the ball over the top to the wing. If you haven’t seen this happen then I don’t know what to say.

I've seen that plenty. What I haven't seen is that situation ending up in an adjudged deliberate knock-on and yellow card.

Puja

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:08 am

Tbh, I want what Craig Doyle suggested about beer to the seats to stop people constantly getting up. Worst experience I've had at a match was the one time I got lower tier seats at Twickenham - just constant people getting up and down and barely noticing that there was a game of rugby going on.

Middle tier's better - more actual fans.

Puja