RugbyRebels

I really just want to see posts concentrated under a title that does not include the name of his predecessor.

In the DT today, Borthwick is reported as arranging (with his new French club) to call up Tom Willis. That's a good start.

I saw that. That would be a really good move.

Huzza but am hoping Dombrandt will be given first crack.

I think Tom Willis might really work well with how Borthwick has liked to play previously. He's got a nice mix of dynamic running and high work rate.

Be a good sign he's going to build the squad in the image he wants.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:41 am I think Tom Willis might really work well with how Borthwick has liked to play previously. He's got a nice mix of dynamic running and high work rate.

Be a good sign he's going to build the squad in the image he wants.

Hasn't Willis signed for Saracens next season?

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:36 am Huzza but am hoping Dombrandt will be given first crack.

Either might have more impact than Billy V - given a decent team playing style. Both, arguably, could provide a secondary line-out option which might mean that Borthwick had alternatives to Lawes at 6.

I was fascinated to see Exeter use Sam Simmonds in the line-out at the weekend when the 2nd row/hooker connection went awry. It suggests that a beanpole is unnecessary as the 3rd jumper.

I'd rank the number 8 candidates: Willis T, Simmonds, Dombrandt, Billy V, Earl. It will be interesting to see what Borthwick's order is.

Not seen Willis at international level at all obviously, but I like what he offers.

Simmonds is some combination of not being used correctly and just being a bit underwhelming. I really struggle to justify him having a spot. I wouldn't say Exeter randomly throwing him up in a lineout says much at all about his skills there (aside from it being notable he doesn't normally jump) or that a decent third option isn't nice to have in the backrow.

Dombrant has had a very stop start England career so far, but looked to be finding his feet before a series of badly timed injuries. His work rate has improved and he regularly makes big defensive interventions now. His selection still largely depends on whether people can stomach him running between defenders rather than directly at them.

Billy is patchy, but a new start with a new coach might get very different performances out of him.

Is Mercer in the same boat as Willis in being available due to signing for an English club, or is that different because he is over there voluntarily?

I don't see Earl being in the picture as a number 8 but I guess his versatility would come in to it if he's fighting for the 20 shirt. I feel like he's a better 8 than Simmonds is a flanker, if that makes sense.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:37 am
Dombrant… his selection still largely depends on whether people can stomach him running between defenders rather than directly at them.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:41 am I think Tom Willis might really work well with how Borthwick has liked to play previously. He's got a nice mix of dynamic running and high work rate.

Be a good sign he's going to build the squad in the image he wants.

How else would he do it?

I'd love for England's number eight for the next few years to come from Willis T, Dombrandt and Mercer. All lineout options, all have a pretty much all-court game, all allow you to pick the flankers you want for how you want to play.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:59 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:41 am I think Tom Willis might really work well with how Borthwick has liked to play previously. He's got a nice mix of dynamic running and high work rate.

Be a good sign he's going to build the squad in the image he wants.

Hasn't Willis signed for Saracens next season?

That is certainly the rumour.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:53 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:41 am I think Tom Willis might really work well with how Borthwick has liked to play previously. He's got a nice mix of dynamic running and high work rate.

Be a good sign he's going to build the squad in the image he wants.

How else would he do it?

Look for short term consistency, particularly around senior players, whilst slowly implementing change with a view to post world cup.

ad_tigger wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:54 am I'd love for England's number eight for the next few years to come from Willis T, Dombrandt and Mercer. All lineout options, all have a pretty much all-court game, all allow you to pick the flankers you want for how you want to play.

I agree with that - even if we might debate the order of names. We have to move on from the battering ram concept.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:06 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:53 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:41 am I think Tom Willis might really work well with how Borthwick has liked to play previously. He's got a nice mix of dynamic running and high work rate.

Be a good sign he's going to build the squad in the image he wants.

How else would he do it?

Look for short term consistency, particularly around senior players, whilst slowly implementing change with a view to post world cup.

Starting out, I wonder what Borthwick's priorities are. Your implication that stamping his mark in general, going for 6N results realistically and aiming for consistency into the RWC sounds about right.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:37 am

Simmonds is some combination of not being used correctly and just being a bit underwhelming. I really struggle to justify him having a spot. I wouldn't say Exeter randomly throwing him up in a lineout says much at all about his skills there (aside from it being notable he doesn't normally jump) or that a decent third option isn't nice to have in the backrow.

You would imagine the vast majority of back row forwards are competent in the line out. Which calls back Simon Shaw's old complaint that he was being left out for not taking enough line out ball, and his argument that that was because it was never thrown to him being ignored.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:06 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:53 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:41 am I think Tom Willis might really work well with how Borthwick has liked to play previously. He's got a nice mix of dynamic running and high work rate.

Be a good sign he's going to build the squad in the image he wants.

How else would he do it?

Look for short term consistency, particularly around senior players, whilst slowly implementing change with a view to post world cup.

That might be the image he wants Either way, I'd hope he does it the way he wants. otherwise what's the point in taking the job.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:47 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:06 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:53 am

How else would he do it?

Look for short term consistency, particularly around senior players, whilst slowly implementing change with a view to post world cup.

Starting out, I wonder what Borthwick's priorities are. Your implication that stamping his mark in general, going for 6N results realistically and aiming for consistency into the RWC sounds about right.

pretty much what any coach would do, and indeed what Jones did, what with winning a GS at the first try Though the nearness of the RWC will be playing on Stevie wonder's mind.

16th man wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:58 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:37 am

Simmonds is some combination of not being used correctly and just being a bit underwhelming. I really struggle to justify him having a spot. I wouldn't say Exeter randomly throwing him up in a lineout says much at all about his skills there (aside from it being notable he doesn't normally jump) or that a decent third option isn't nice to have in the backrow.

You would imagine the vast majority of back row forwards are competent in the line out. Which calls back Simon Shaw's old complaint that he was being left out for not taking enough line out ball, and his argument that that was because it was never thrown to him being ignored.

Well sure, but is competent really the standard? It's certainly not all about height either. Simmonds might be like Peter O'Mahoney for all I know, but it would seem strange they've kept that hidden for so long.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:07 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:47 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:06 am

Look for short term consistency, particularly around senior players, whilst slowly implementing change with a view to post world cup.

Starting out, I wonder what Borthwick's priorities are. Your implication that stamping his mark in general, going for 6N results realistically and aiming for consistency into the RWC sounds about right.

pretty much what any coach would do, and indeed what Jones did, what with winning a GS at the first try Though the nearness of the RWC will be playing on Stevie wonder's mind.

Quite. As a matter of interest, how do you think Borthwick rates against his predecessor? I only ask because your posts don't suggest you are a fan.

Most BR forwards dont jump regularly at the l/o.
A few can get up occasionally to win a ball but a really good l/o forward who can win his own ball and challenge the oppositions is quite rare. Thats why Lawes is so handy and players like Martin and Hill should be in the conversation about playing at 6.
Having a BR player who can compete at the l/o is useful, otherwise you are putting more pressure on your locks to win and compete.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:34 pm Most BR forwards dont jump regularly at the l/o.
A few can get up occasionally to win a ball but a really good l/o forward who can win his own ball and challenge the oppositions is quite rare. Thats why Lawes is so handy and players like Martin and Hill should be in the conversation about playing at 6.
Having a BR player who can compete at the l/o is useful, otherwise you are putting more pressure on your locks to win and compete.

Agreed. If you want a good rolling maul game it's very useful to have the props and locks on the ground ready to push and a backrow coming down with the ball.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:47 am Starting out, I wonder what Borthwick's priorities are. Your implication that stamping his mark in general, going for 6N results realistically and aiming for consistency into the RWC sounds about right.

What would we say would constitute a successful 6N for Borthwick?

Personally, I'd say three victories would be a decent, if not overwhelming, result. We have to win our first two at home to Scotland and Italy and winning one more against an injury-hit Wales or a minor upset against Ireland or France should be within our capabilities.

Two victories would be disappointing, but possibly acceptable depending on whether we looked like we were building something. 2/5 with us just looking abject and planless would obviously not be good enough.

What's everyone else's take?

Puja

Not sure I’m that worried about results. I just want to see some coherence, functioning units, strong/secure set piece etc etc

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:34 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:07 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:47 am

Starting out, I wonder what Borthwick's priorities are. Your implication that stamping his mark in general, going for 6N results realistically and aiming for consistency into the RWC sounds about right.

pretty much what any coach would do, and indeed what Jones did, what with winning a GS at the first try Though the nearness of the RWC will be playing on Stevie wonder's mind.

Quite. As a matter of interest, how do you think Borthwick rates against his predecessor? I only ask because your posts don't suggest you are a fan.

I'm pretty neutral on Stevie B. I was surprised how well he did in his first full season with Tigers- despite his obviously good technical coaching credentials with forwards, I didn't think he had the charisma, drive or head coaching experience to deliver what was a pretty spectacular turnaround; the recent half season has been very mixed to be kind, and I would have been interested to have seen how he would have responded to this in terms of tactics, selection and recruitment-- to some extent, the tactics were rumbled and countered, though also hampered by injuries/availabilities (though this happens to all teams). So some of my reservations I had on his appointment with Tigers have been answered through performance, but others remain; he's relatively inexperienced as a head coach, let alone an international one, and I wonder how his temperament will hold up and indeed how he will front up to the press (like it or not, its a big part of the job). I do wonder how his leadership 'style' (frankly I don't know what its like behind closed doors) will land with international players, and whether he has a broader tactical ammunition and nous up his sleeve (hence being interested in what would have happened in the second half of this season with Tigers). On the plus side, I think his attention to detail and technical coaching will be very useful for a squad that lost sight of a lot of basics latterly under Eddie, and I think he will be able to positively influence and thus improve some of the forwards individual and unit performances; then translating that into broader team improvements will depend on how he and the other coaches gel and then align team objectives and tactics and take the players with him.

It'd be a big ask for en experienced intl head coach, esp so close to two big tournies- so I wish him all the best; decent guy, proper rugby bloke.

SB has the fans and the press on his side. I was bored in a waiting room when he was announced and listened to a long set of interviews he did at the presser. He just needs to ride that wave and get everyone back in and go from there.