RugbyRebels

I know it was leaked on Tuesday night, but here it is officially:

Genge
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Dombrandt

Van Poortvliet
Smith
Hassell-Collins
Farrell (c)
Marchant
Malins
Steward

Bench: Walker, Vunipola, Cole, Isiekwe, Earl, Youngs, Lawrence, Watson.

And a reminder of the Scotland team:

Schoeman
Turner
Nel
R. Gray
Gilchrist
Ritchie (c)
Crosbie
M. Fagerson

White
Russell
Van der Merwe
Tuipulotu
Jones
Steyn
Hogg

Bench: Brown, Bhatti, Berghan, J. Gray, Dempsey, Horne, Kinghorn, Harris.

Still fancy the England pack, and the back row battle should be tasty. Scotland's backline looks more dangerous though IMO, although strange to see Price left out entirely. England's bench has possibly got more oomph.

That three quarter line could well work, but I just can't get over it looking all wrong. Does it feel like now we've gone back to Farrell at 12 (after everyone talking about him as a 10 again) we're likely going to see another 5 years of it?

I like the pack on the whole though. Has Chessum got the footwork for tight-head lock?

What is the deal with the leaks? Do they care? Is it intentional/un-prevented? Just seems weird to wait so long for team announcements if so.

Worth pointing out they never explicitly ruled out Smith/Farrell continuing, but Kelly and Slade getting injured put a bit of a spanner in the works in terms of moving on.

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:36 pm I know it was leaked on Tuesday night, but here it is officially:

Genge
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Dombrandt

Van Poortvliet
Smith
Hassell-Collins
Farrell (c)
Marchant
Malins
Steward

Bench: Walker, Vunipola, Cole, Isiekwe, Earl, Youngs, Lawrence, Watson.

As before, the 10/12 axis just doesn't look a good fit on paper (and hasn't in reality), and its a pretty lightweight back division- Freeman not being there at all is disappointing. Up front it's pretty mobile, to the point of maybe underpowered-ish-- assume Ludlam will be jumping?

There are four new units as far as I can tell, so that will take a while to gel.....but it looks like a very different style, run round rather than through, so will be fascinating, and at least we should be able to resource width in attack.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:44 pm That three quarter line could well work, but I just can't get over it looking all wrong. Does it feel like now we've gone back to Farrell at 12 (after everyone talking about him as a 10 again) we're likely going to see another 5 years of it?

I like the pack on the whole though. Has Chessum got the footwork for tight-head lock?

What is the deal with the leaks? Do they care? Is it intentional/un-prevented? Just seems weird to wait so long for team announcements if so.

Does Chessum pack down as tight head lock for Tigers when he's not playing 6?

Don't think there will be any tactical changes to the England midfield. Lawrence for Marchant perhaps. I do hope the outside centre and wings see the ball other than chasing kicks. I do like the scrum, including the bench.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:52 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:44 pm That three quarter line could well work, but I just can't get over it looking all wrong. Does it feel like now we've gone back to Farrell at 12 (after everyone talking about him as a 10 again) we're likely going to see another 5 years of it?

I like the pack on the whole though. Has Chessum got the footwork for tight-head lock?

What is the deal with the leaks? Do they care? Is it intentional/un-prevented? Just seems weird to wait so long for team announcements if so.

Does Chessum pack down as tight head lock for Tigers when he's not playing 6?

I'm pretty certain I've seen him pack down both sides. I wouldn't be hanging my hat in him being the second row scrumming powerhouse some may want, his work rate around the park and physicality with that mobility seems to be a theme for the pack. It's more mobile than we've seen since maybe the 2019 world cup when Lawes was at lock with Itoje and Billy was still effective.

Going to be very interesting to see how Borthwick gets these guys to play because the Eddie style forward power game isn't going to work. Three playmakers in the backline suggests the possibility of a more open attack but also it's a team you'd expect to be very competent in the kick chase, especially targeting that turnover directly after or in the first phase.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:10 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:52 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:44 pm That three quarter line could well work, but I just can't get over it looking all wrong. Does it feel like now we've gone back to Farrell at 12 (after everyone talking about him as a 10 again) we're likely going to see another 5 years of it?

I like the pack on the whole though. Has Chessum got the footwork for tight-head lock?

What is the deal with the leaks? Do they care? Is it intentional/un-prevented? Just seems weird to wait so long for team announcements if so.

Does Chessum pack down as tight head lock for Tigers when he's not playing 6?

I'm pretty certain I've seen him pack down both sides. I wouldn't be hanging my hat in him being the second row scrumming powerhouse some may want, his work rate around the park and physicality with that mobility seems to be a theme for the pack. It's more mobile than we've seen since maybe the 2019 world cup when Lawes was at lock with Itoje and Billy was still effective.

Going to be very interesting to see how Borthwick gets these guys to play because the Eddie style forward power game isn't going to work. Three playmakers in the backline suggests the possibility of a more open attack but also it's a team you'd expect to be very competent in the kick chase, especially targeting that turnover directly after or in the first phase.

....as above, looks like we are planning to run round rather than through. Is Malins a good kick chaser? Marchant is pretty good, and though I haven't seen much of him, so is OHC from memory.

Don't think anyone is expecting Chessum to be a powerhouse scrummager; personally, I'd have gone Ribbans, but Chessum gives you better mobility in the loose and more options in the lineout.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:10 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:52 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:44 pm That three quarter line could well work, but I just can't get over it looking all wrong. Does it feel like now we've gone back to Farrell at 12 (after everyone talking about him as a 10 again) we're likely going to see another 5 years of it?

I like the pack on the whole though. Has Chessum got the footwork for tight-head lock?

What is the deal with the leaks? Do they care? Is it intentional/un-prevented? Just seems weird to wait so long for team announcements if so.

Does Chessum pack down as tight head lock for Tigers when he's not playing 6?

I'm pretty certain I've seen him pack down both sides. I wouldn't be hanging my hat in him being the second row scrumming powerhouse some may want, his work rate around the park and physicality with that mobility seems to be a theme for the pack. It's more mobile than we've seen since maybe the 2019 world cup when Lawes was at lock with Itoje and Billy was still effective.

Going to be very interesting to see how Borthwick gets these guys to play because the Eddie style forward power game isn't going to work. Three playmakers in the backline suggests the possibility of a more open attack but also it's a team you'd expect to be very competent in the kick chase, especially targeting that turnover directly after or in the first phase.

Well, Scotland is probably the team to play that way against.

I know I'm very partisan, but no Ribbans or Freeman in the 23 seems ridiculous. Ribbans gives you a very solid carrying option which this pack could do with, and Malins over Freeman is just confusing.

Mush wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:08 pm Don't think there will be any tactical changes to the England midfield. Lawrence for Marchant perhaps. I do hope the outside centre and wings see the ball other than chasing kicks. I do like the scrum, including the bench.

I wouldn't mind seeing Lawrence come on at 12 with one of our 10's giving way

Adam_P wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:43 pm I know I'm very partisan, but no Ribbans or Freeman in the 23 seems ridiculous. Ribbans gives you a very solid carrying option which this pack could do with, and Malins over Freeman is just confusing.

Agreed- Freeman has taken well to intl rugby and Ribbans had a good autumn. Feel a bit for Coles as well while we are at it- though his confidence looked a bit battered post SA.

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:44 pm

Mush wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:08 pm Don't think there will be any tactical changes to the England midfield. Lawrence for Marchant perhaps. I do hope the outside centre and wings see the ball other than chasing kicks. I do like the scrum, including the bench.

I wouldn't mind seeing Lawrence come on at 12 with one of our 10's giving way

unfortunately we know which one! I'd love to see Lawrence alongside Smith with Marchant at 13.

Adam_P wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:43 pm I know I'm very partisan, but no Ribbans or Freeman in the 23 seems ridiculous. Ribbans gives you a very solid carrying option which this pack could do with, and Malins over Freeman is just confusing.

Agree. But Ribbans only came in after Lawes was ruled out - (though he should have been in the original selection). I like Malins, but I would have Freeman ahead for sure.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:45 pm

Adam_P wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:43 pm I know I'm very partisan, but no Ribbans or Freeman in the 23 seems ridiculous. Ribbans gives you a very solid carrying option which this pack could do with, and Malins over Freeman is just confusing.

Agreed- Freeman has taken well to intl rugby and Ribbans had a good autumn. Feel a bit for Coles as well while we are at it- though his confidence looked a bit battered post SA.

Coles looked very much the schoolboy that day v SA

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:47 pm

Adam_P wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:43 pm I know I'm very partisan, but no Ribbans or Freeman in the 23 seems ridiculous. Ribbans gives you a very solid carrying option which this pack could do with, and Malins over Freeman is just confusing.

Agree. But Ribbans only came in after Lawes was ruled out - (though he should have been in the original selection). I like Malins, but I would have Freeman ahead for sure.

Watson and Lawrence were also called up as replacements.

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:48 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:45 pm

Adam_P wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:43 pm I know I'm very partisan, but no Ribbans or Freeman in the 23 seems ridiculous. Ribbans gives you a very solid carrying option which this pack could do with, and Malins over Freeman is just confusing.

Agreed- Freeman has taken well to intl rugby and Ribbans had a good autumn. Feel a bit for Coles as well while we are at it- though his confidence looked a bit battered post SA.

Coles looked very much the schoolboy that day v SA

He did (despite being 23 )- stupid sticking him at 6 v SA (as I said at the time), when he'd gone well at lock v Argentina. He's talented and skilled, but hasn't had time to learn his craft at 6, and that's the worst side to try and learn against.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:48 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:47 pm

Adam_P wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:43 pm I know I'm very partisan, but no Ribbans or Freeman in the 23 seems ridiculous. Ribbans gives you a very solid carrying option which this pack could do with, and Malins over Freeman is just confusing.

Agree. But Ribbans only came in after Lawes was ruled out - (though he should have been in the original selection). I like Malins, but I would have Freeman ahead for sure.

Watson and Lawrence were also called up as replacements.

I know, but Lawes covered back row and lock. Which sort of lints as to why he has gone with the 2 (sorry 3) he has. Not saying it was the right decision.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:51 pm

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:36 pm I know it was leaked on Tuesday night, but here it is officially:

Genge
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Dombrandt

Van Poortvliet
Smith
Hassell-Collins
Farrell (c)
Marchant
Malins
Steward

Bench: Walker, Vunipola, Cole, Isiekwe, Earl, Youngs, Lawrence, Watson.

As before, the 10/12 axis just doesn't look a good fit on paper (and hasn't in reality), and its a pretty lightweight back division- Freeman not being there at all is disappointing. Up front it's pretty mobile, to the point of maybe underpowered-ish-- assume Ludlam will be jumping?

There are four new units as far as I can tell, so that will take a while to gel.....but it looks like a very different style, run round rather than through, so will be fascinating, and at least we should be able to resource width in attack.

On the lightness of the backs, would you not say that OHC and Steward are of pretty solid physicality? I don't think I've ever seen Steward overpowered and OHC carries through traffic as well as anyone around. Marchant is sometimes perceived as a featherweight which I've never understood (ditto Slade).

I really like Malins as a rugby player but I still struggle to see him as an international winger. Maybe the move to Bristol will see him get more game time in either the 10 or 15 shirts (if he has any ambition to play in those positions anymore tbf, he may well now see himself as a winger). And maybe a new environment will help unlock his potential both domestically and internationally - it's not exactly been easy to shine playing on the wing for England recently.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:44 pm That three quarter line could well work, but I just can't get over it looking all wrong. Does it feel like now we've gone back to Farrell at 12 (after everyone talking about him as a 10 again) we're likely going to see another 5 years of it?

I like the pack on the whole though. Has Chessum got the footwork for tight-head lock?

What is the deal with the leaks? Do they care? Is it intentional/un-prevented? Just seems weird to wait so long for team announcements if so.

I'd imagine Borthwick's pissed about it - he was very keen on controlling information as Leicester coach and to have the exact lineup released two days in advance is the opposite of his usual MO. There didn't seem to be any leaks under Eddie, despite the camp being a sieve under Burt (causing speculation that it was Tom Wood who had a hotline to the journos), so I wonder what's changed.

Chessum has played 5 for England and Leicester before, so it's within his skillset.

On Farrell at 12 - I know I have less of a problem with it than others, but it occurred to me that it may depend how Evans is lining it up. Under Jones/Gleeson, Farrell may've worn 12 but played 10 most of the time, with Smith being a wildcard that dipped in and out, which often had the downside of Smith looking lost, Farrell at 10, and us effectively playing with 6 backs. Given Evans has been big on clarity and simplicity and players knowing what they're doing, we might end up with Smith both wearing and playing at 10 and Farrell playing an orthodox 12, which might be better.

Yes, yes, I know, straws, clutching, etc.

Puja

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:58 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:51 pm

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:36 pm I know it was leaked on Tuesday night, but here it is officially:

Genge
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Dombrandt

Van Poortvliet
Smith
Hassell-Collins
Farrell (c)
Marchant
Malins
Steward

Bench: Walker, Vunipola, Cole, Isiekwe, Earl, Youngs, Lawrence, Watson.

As before, the 10/12 axis just doesn't look a good fit on paper (and hasn't in reality), and its a pretty lightweight back division- Freeman not being there at all is disappointing. Up front it's pretty mobile, to the point of maybe underpowered-ish-- assume Ludlam will be jumping?

There are four new units as far as I can tell, so that will take a while to gel.....but it looks like a very different style, run round rather than through, so will be fascinating, and at least we should be able to resource width in attack.

On the lightness of the backs, would you not say that OHC and Steward are of pretty solid physicality? I don't think I've ever seen Steward overpowered and OHC carries through traffic as well as anyone around. Marchant is sometimes perceived as a featherweight which I've never understood (ditto Slade).

Its not just literal weight . Steward is a unit, and OHC carries well at club level. But the rest aren't that physical, except for Farrell's rubbish tackling.

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:57 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:48 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:47 pm

Agree. But Ribbans only came in after Lawes was ruled out - (though he should have been in the original selection). I like Malins, but I would have Freeman ahead for sure.

Watson and Lawrence were also called up as replacements.

I know, but Lawes covered back row and lock. Which sort of lints as to why he has gone with the 2 (sorry 3) he has. Not saying it was the right decision.

He already had 2 other hybrids but hey....a lint is a lint.

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:03 pm I really like Malins as a rugby player but I still struggle to see him as an international winger.

as above, yes. Imo he's best at 10.