Doldrums

[Mr Mwenda]

Really impressive despair here. I feel it too. Yesterday's defeat will live in the memory as one of the most painful defeats. For me though, I think my pain is really rooted in the feeling that the game I love is fundamentally broken:
- Participation is down at the amateur level. So many of the clubs I care about seem to be shadows of themselves. Meanwhile, the RFU seemingly unable to work in a conciliatory manner with either pro or amateur arms of the game.
- pro rugby is increasingly uninteresting to me - too expensive to attend and English clubs are seldom competitive in Europe. Also, clearly not producing sufficient international quality players. Most pro clubs are clearly unsustainable and indeed barely resemble a traditional rugby club. Just crappy versions of American franchises funded by eccentric rich people.
- England's national team are clueless and have been now humbled by Celts, frogs and boks recently. Changing players and coaches seems to only be polishing a turd.

The only positives i can think of are the growth of women's rugby and quins playing some lovely stuff.

So the question I have is what should be done? I don't have any real answers. I suspect community clubs need to basically become junior and mini focused and/or touch if they aren't already. We need to just seperate pro and amateur rugby completely - prl and the pro relevant bits of the RFU almaganate or something, anything. Sort out the structure, merge clubs, bugger off with the EPS restrictions - keep international and club fixtures apart, let the England coaches have as much training time as they like.

What I'd like to know is how the French have recovered from so many shite years. Is it just one freakishly good generation and then they are fucked? Why are they able to build cohesive teams from multiple pro clubs despite no EPs release days?

With that, is all pro rugby on borrowed time? Aus, SA and NZ are bumping up the airmiles in search of money; Ireland's system is presumably hending towards the point when all their money is literally spent on Blackrock college or some other posh Dublin school, while their women's team get a pittance.

[16th man]

For the French, didn't Laporte get together with the clubs and instigate a set of reforms to support the national side, producing more, better quality French players?

Plus they're also reaping the harvest of the Pacific Island "recruitment" drive of kids.

[Peej]

For the French, didn't Laporte get together with the clubs and instigate a set of reforms to support the national side, producing more, better quality French players?

Plus they're also reaping the harvest of the Pacific Island "recruitment" drive of kids.

Are they? Which of the 23 yesterday are via that route?

[Peej]

Yesterday was the worst I can recall England playing since S.A. 2007

[p/d]

The only positives i can think of are the growth of women's rugby and quins playing some lovely stuff.

I’m sorry, and ashamed to admit it, but I really did read this part of post wrongly

[fivepointer]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... orror-show

Kitson in the Guardian.

Getting the elite game in this country properly settled is key. The national side is the main driver of interest/revenue in the game and their success should be the principal aim. Get that right and things can flow from it.

[Banquo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... orror-show

Kitson in the Guardian.

Getting the elite game in this country properly settled is key. The national side is the main driver of interest/revenue in the game and their success should be the principal aim. Get that right and things can flow from it.

Yes, and the timing is right to get our pyramid aligned.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Would the RFU really do it though? It feels the right thing to do, as well as revisit the age grade structure and undo some of the Dean Ryan years, but is the RFU actually interested. You might find it isn't fit for purpose in all this.

[twitchy]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... orror-show

Kitson in the Guardian.

Getting the elite game in this country properly settled is key. The national side is the main driver of interest/revenue in the game and their success should be the principal aim. Get that right and things can flow from it.

Yes, and the timing is right to get our pyramid aligned.

What would this look like do you think?

[Banquo]

Would the RFU really do it though? It feels the right thing to do, as well as revisit the age grade structure and undo some of the Dean Ryan years, but is the RFU actually interested. You might find it isn't fit for purpose in all this.

I don't think you can just point fingers at the RFU tbh, and I'd say less about interest, more about competence, which amounts to the same I guess.

[Banquo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... orror-show

Kitson in the Guardian.

Getting the elite game in this country properly settled is key. The national side is the main driver of interest/revenue in the game and their success should be the principal aim. Get that right and things can flow from it.

Yes, and the timing is right to get our pyramid aligned.

What would this look like do you think?

Fixture alignment, clubs and RFU actually working together would be a start, less prem teams, something more like the Irish model. Simultaneously the RFU has to find a way of growing participation in mens and women's games.

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

There’s definitely a happy medium that needs to be found here. The public popularity of the game can’t support the French model (which is essentially what we’re trying and failing at), and we can’t go fully Irish model, because we do have some semblance of club loyalty and support and a much larger player base.

I do however think we need a vastly reduced elite tier with the National players concentrated into 5/6 teams, centrally contracted, coaching alignment, possibly entered into the URC (I know, I know!).

Hopefully, rather than kill off the teams that didn’t become regions, we could just have a really healthy championship/national league that could act as a feeder to the elite teams, but still be professional and keep fans interest alongside.

How to make this happen… don’t ask me!

[Banquo]

There’s definitely a happy medium that needs to be found here. The public popularity of the game can’t support the French model (which is essentially what we’re trying and failing at), and we can’t go fully Irish model, because we do have some semblance of club loyalty and support and a much larger player base.

I do however think we need a vastly reduced elite tier with the National players concentrated into 5/6 teams, centrally contracted, coaching alignment, possibly entered into the URC (I know, I know!).

Hopefully, rather than kill off the teams that didn’t become regions, we could just have a really healthy championship/national league that could act as a feeder to the elite teams, but still be professional and keep fans interest alongside.

How to make this happen… don’t ask me!

Yep- I did say something like the Irish model- they don't have a problem with club loyalty/playing for the shirt, because the provinces were pre-existing super clubs with long tradition. We don't have anything that parallels that tbh, but that's what we should be building in line with your suggestion- super clubs, rather than a franchising system. But it goes deeper than that in Ireland, their feeder system is more seamless than ours; but as you point out, its a different sort of problem to solve.

[Oakboy]

No significant professional world sport can survive without fancy outside money, whether from TV, sponsors, entrepreneurs, Arab countries, US rich kids etc. Conversely, England pro rugby has a salary cap, recently reduced.

Yes, there are reasons and the clubs can claim the need for support but the attraction of French wages must be challenged. If we pay second rate wages we will have second rate players.

Marketing the English game should be the number one priority not an afterthought. I think it all starts there from a top/down viewpoint. Diverting funds into the grassroots has to happen too but you can't divert what isn't there in the first place.

[Banquo]

No significant professional world sport can survive without fancy outside money, whether from TV, sponsors, entrepreneurs, Arab countries, US rich kids etc. Conversely, England pro rugby has a salary cap, recently reduced.

Yes, there are reasons and the clubs can claim the need for support but the attraction of French wages must be challenged. If we pay second rate wages we will have second rate players.

Marketing the English game should be the number one priority not an afterthought. I think it all starts there from a top/down viewpoint. Diverting funds into the grassroots has to happen too but you can't divert what isn't there in the first place.

There's a fair bit of funding into the age grades, grassroots and women's game, but as you say, if that money dries up at the top.......

Also have to bear in mind the impact covid had on the RFU and club finances. The annual report is worth a read to see where the money goes.

https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/3c/3 ... rt2022.pdf

[SixAndAHalf]

For the senior team, I wouldn't overreact too much to the result (we beat France 44-8 in 2019) - they are clearly peaking in their cycle whereas we are a few games into a new programme. The dye is cast now as we hung on to Eddie Jones for far too long.

At the u20 level, we were strong until we got rid of John Fletcher and Russel Earnshaw - that decision needs to be examined carefully. Both this and the woes of the senior side point towards the senior bods at the RFU.

At club level - the Premiership is clearly suffering from the reduced salary cap and that will become a vicious circle. There is probably a case for trying to create two pro divisions (total of 12-16 teams) but letting those that want to spend to compete in Europe do as such - although regulate it to make sure it is done via committed shareholder funds and not loans to ensure some financial sustainability. Ultimately, from a health and entertainment PoV, there must be a strong case to play less games (if the business models can be adjusted to sustain it - may need a timeline to move towards this gradually).

Below the pro level, I could not disagree more with the point of making the community clubs "touch only" - many of these clubs (including my own) have a 100 year+ history and have many ancillary benefits outside of feeding the pro game. I think the RFU has become a bit ashamed of the community club culture as it doesn't always fit in with the modern corporate agenda (i.e. when I speak to friends nowadays, rugby is seen as dangerous) whereas if appreciated correctly it could become a great way to introduce people to the sport (e.g. via playing). In general though there are again way too many games and the structure is a complete mess - there was meant to be a restructure but all that has happened is the same number of games being squeezed into a shorter time so that the RFU can run a heavily sponsored national tournament. It's a big commitment to play club rugby - really below National 1 / 2 level, the leagues should be a lot more local with 1st and 2nds always playing together - plus encouraging Friday night games etc so people can still play while enjoying other weekend activities.

[Mr Mwenda]

Just to clarify, 6 and a half, i don't WANT clubs to become touch rugby. It's just my understanding that amateur participation levels are nosediving. I see competitive touch as one way to people involved in clubs.

Having said that, i am sceptical of the viability of the traditional rugby club as an institution sadly. my experience is that too few want to have their social lives there. When I was playing in England, only the old boys and me (it helped that my house was round the corner) really seemed to want to spend time at the club after games. Last time I went down, it was clear that the hordes of minis and juniors and their parents were the beating heart and soul of the club.

We have an interesting situation at my club now in Sweden. There has been a concerted effort by several retired people to play touch seriously but the men's first team will have nothing to do with it. This is despite big training camps being put on, with 30 people coming from Stockholm. I realise it's fair enough that people prefer rugby to touch but the tragedy is that senior training is attended by on average of about a dozen people including retired and women. They have no rugby as it is, but they won't play touch. The club deserves to die, sadly.

[Oakboy]

Lots of fans are angry about the manner and margin of defeat and I think it's a bit rich that they are getting pilloried for being upset. Several factors don't help:

A new head coach should have been free to choose his own squad. Being allowed only a handful of changes to his predecessor's squad is nonsensical.

7 - 10 players heading to France for better reward is not happening in a vacuum. Players talk and minds get distracted. It is a fundamental defect that creates such a market issue, especially with only home-based players getting picked (mainly).

Having premiership matches coinciding with internationals is simply unprofessional.

Imposing a salary cap, then reducing it, is more or less suicidal. By definition (see Exeter) it forces acceptance of mediocrity.

Seeing Ireland and France hit dizzy heights with English coaches making significant contributions hurts. If the RFU appoint an obnoxious has-been Australian for seven years as the best paid head coach in world rugby could we not al least have afforded the best English guys available? I'm all for giving SB a chance now he's there but I'd dump him and his crew for A Farrell, Catt and Edwards in a heartbeat.

[Puja]

Seeing Ireland and France hit dizzy heights with English coaches making significant contributions hurts. If the RFU appoint an obnoxious has-been Australian for seven years as the best paid head coach in world rugby could we not al least have afforded the best English guys available? I'm all for giving SB a chance now he's there but I'd dump him and his crew for A Farrell, Catt and Edwards in a heartbeat.

This seems like a baffling request. At the time we hired the obnoxious has-been Australian, we actually had Farrell and Catt under contract and paid them to leave - I don't think a single fan was against that decision either. Both have clearly blossomed with their sojourns and apprenticeships elsewhere, but if we'd kept them in 2015, there's no guarantee they'd end up where they are now, and that's allowing for the massive amounts of hindsight in saying we should've kept them.

Or are you talking that we shoud've poached them in 2022 instead of Borthwick, at a time when they manifestly weren't interested in an approach?

Edwards, I'll give you - we should've done better there.

Puja

[Banquo]

Seeing Ireland and France hit dizzy heights with English coaches making significant contributions hurts. If the RFU appoint an obnoxious has-been Australian for seven years as the best paid head coach in world rugby could we not al least have afforded the best English guys available? I'm all for giving SB a chance now he's there but I'd dump him and his crew for A Farrell, Catt and Edwards in a heartbeat.

This seems like a baffling request. At the time we hired the obnoxious has-been Australian, we actually had Farrell and Catt under contract and paid them to leave - I don't think a single fan was against that decision either. Both have clearly blossomed with their sojourns and apprenticeships elsewhere, but if we'd kept them in 2015, there's no guarantee they'd end up where they are now, and that's allowing for the massive amounts of hindsight in saying we should've kept them.

Or are you talking that we shoud've poached them in 2022 instead of Borthwick, at a time when they manifestly weren't interested in an approach?

Edwards, I'll give you - we should've done better there.

Puja

I think Edwards got the hump in 2008 and has decided to make life as difficult as possible for any england team thereafter. Done a decent job of it.

Eddie may have been obnoxious, but in fairness he raised England's fans expectations having had our chins on the floor since about 2004.....only to cruelly dash them.

The really worrying thing for England is news that the likes of Jack Nowell are off to France on double offered domestic salary!

[Oakboy]

Seeing Ireland and France hit dizzy heights with English coaches making significant contributions hurts. If the RFU appoint an obnoxious has-been Australian for seven years as the best paid head coach in world rugby could we not al least have afforded the best English guys available? I'm all for giving SB a chance now he's there but I'd dump him and his crew for A Farrell, Catt and Edwards in a heartbeat.

This seems like a baffling request. At the time we hired the obnoxious has-been Australian, we actually had Farrell and Catt under contract and paid them to leave - I don't think a single fan was against that decision either. Both have clearly blossomed with their sojourns and apprenticeships elsewhere, but if we'd kept them in 2015, there's no guarantee they'd end up where they are now, and that's allowing for the massive amounts of hindsight in saying we should've kept them.

Or are you talking that we shoud've poached them in 2022 instead of Borthwick, at a time when they manifestly weren't interested in an approach?

Edwards, I'll give you - we should've done better there.

Puja

You're saying that it's beyond the RFU to employ contractual negotiators to time these appointments properly? If we were to turn the clock back a few months to the end of the last era, would you not have preferred Farrell, Catt and Edwards to the current lot? I was making the point in reaction to genuine fans being accused of over-reacting to a record defeat. Having better English coaches opposing us was simply one of the issues. All three, given the right approach and terms would rather coach their own country than a foreign one, I imagine!

[Puja]

Seeing Ireland and France hit dizzy heights with English coaches making significant contributions hurts. If the RFU appoint an obnoxious has-been Australian for seven years as the best paid head coach in world rugby could we not al least have afforded the best English guys available? I'm all for giving SB a chance now he's there but I'd dump him and his crew for A Farrell, Catt and Edwards in a heartbeat.

This seems like a baffling request. At the time we hired the obnoxious has-been Australian, we actually had Farrell and Catt under contract and paid them to leave - I don't think a single fan was against that decision either. Both have clearly blossomed with their sojourns and apprenticeships elsewhere, but if we'd kept them in 2015, there's no guarantee they'd end up where they are now, and that's allowing for the massive amounts of hindsight in saying we should've kept them.

Or are you talking that we shoud've poached them in 2022 instead of Borthwick, at a time when they manifestly weren't interested in an approach?

Edwards, I'll give you - we should've done better there.

Puja

You're saying that it's beyond the RFU to employ contractual negotiators to time these appointments properly? If we were to turn the clock back a few months to the end of the last era, would you not have preferred Farrell, Catt and Edwards to the current lot? I was making the point in reaction to genuine fans being accused of over-reacting to a record defeat. Having better English coaches opposing us was simply one of the issues. All three, given the right approach and terms would rather coach their own country than a foreign one, I imagine!

Bold to assume that Edwards, Farrell, and Catt would've left their secure and well-paid jobs with the top two nations in the world, less than a year before a RWC that they stand a decent chance of winning, in order to take charge of a weaker team, in the name of national pride.

Puja

[Banquo]

This seems like a baffling request. At the time we hired the obnoxious has-been Australian, we actually had Farrell and Catt under contract and paid them to leave - I don't think a single fan was against that decision either. Both have clearly blossomed with their sojourns and apprenticeships elsewhere, but if we'd kept them in 2015, there's no guarantee they'd end up where they are now, and that's allowing for the massive amounts of hindsight in saying we should've kept them.

Or are you talking that we shoud've poached them in 2022 instead of Borthwick, at a time when they manifestly weren't interested in an approach?

Edwards, I'll give you - we should've done better there.

Puja

You're saying that it's beyond the RFU to employ contractual negotiators to time these appointments properly? If we were to turn the clock back a few months to the end of the last era, would you not have preferred Farrell, Catt and Edwards to the current lot? I was making the point in reaction to genuine fans being accused of over-reacting to a record defeat. Having better English coaches opposing us was simply one of the issues. All three, given the right approach and terms would rather coach their own country than a foreign one, I imagine!

Bold to assume that Edwards, Farrell, and Catt would've left their secure and well-paid jobs with the top two nations in the world, less than a year before a RWC that they stand a decent chance of winning, in order to take charge of a weaker team, in the name of national pride.

Puja

I think their brushes with the RFU and the issues with our rugby structures would also mitigate against their joining. Its not a plum job tbh, although it should be. Fair play to Farrell and Catt, they've really developed well from their initial poor forays into intl rugger.

[Mellsblue]

I look forward to Salty Beachwalker having his international apprenticeship with England before going off to Scotland to take them to grand slam glory.

[p/d]

I look forward to Smuggler Budgie opting to wear a suit as per the dappa French...... set an example man!!!