RugbyRebels

Saracens: Goode; Malins, Lozowski, Tompkins, Maitland; Farrell (capt), Van Zyl; Mawi, George, Riccioni, Itoje, Tizard, Isiekwe, Earl, Wray.

Replacements: Dan, M Vunipola, Judge, Hunter-Hill, Knight, De Haas, Taylor, Daly.

Sale Sharks: Carpenter; Roebuck, R Du Preez, Tuilagi, Reed; Ford, Warr; McIntyre, Van der Merwe, Schonert, J-L Du Preez, Hill, T Curry, Dugdale, Ross (capt).

Replacements: Ashman, Rodd, Oosthuizen, Beaumont, Ellis, Quirke, James, O'Flaherty.

Referee: Luke Pearce.

Sale stick with the dual opensides. Sarries keep Mako in reserve, presumably hoping to use him as impact in the second half and shore up the scrum in the first.

I had thought that Sale might start O'Flaherty in this one to add experience to the back three but they are backing the young guns. The Sarries bench doesn't look as strong as it used to.

Would definitely have started Daly ahead of Malins or Maitland, and Mako is an odd one tho I see a logic. I think Sarries may well struggle at the breakdown if there is any width. Midfield will be a great battle and Sale have a substantial edge at 9.

Fancy Sale. Not by much and i'm not expecting much of a spectacle.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 2:32 pm Fancy Sale. Not by much and i'm not expecting much of a spectacle.

I'm cheering for them. Well, actually I'm mostly cheering for a Farrell high-tackle red card that bans him for a minimum of 6 games, but it would be nice to see Sale lift the trophy.

Puja

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 2:32 pm Fancy Sale. Not by much and i'm not expecting much of a spectacle.

I agree, Sarries have looked shaky in the later part of the season. They'll miss Billy big time.

So with the dreaded return of …”the fly-half debate” comes the question - is there any course of events tomorrow that would see Ford genuinely considered to replace (not rotate with or shuffle him out to 12) Farrell?

There seems to be so much talk about Ford again but I just don’t see it happening. Smith vs France seemed like a blip, and Borthwick responded very Jonesily to it.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 11:54 pm So with the dreaded return of …”the fly-half debate” comes the question - is there any course of events tomorrow that would see Ford genuinely considered to replace (not rotate with or shuffle him out to 12) Farrell?

There seems to be so much talk about Ford again but I just don’t see it happening. Smith vs France seemed like a blip, and Borthwick responded very Jonesily to it.

I think there's a chance. Borthwick has a history with Ford - he was the most important player in his Leicester team and he fits what Borthwick seems to want from a 10. Plus his form is ridiculous right now.

There's a chance. But there is also a reason that I'm hoping for a Farrell straight red and lengthy ban.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 12:10 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 11:54 pm So with the dreaded return of …”the fly-half debate” comes the question - is there any course of events tomorrow that would see Ford genuinely considered to replace (not rotate with or shuffle him out to 12) Farrell?

There seems to be so much talk about Ford again but I just don’t see it happening. Smith vs France seemed like a blip, and Borthwick responded very Jonesily to it.

I think there's a chance. Borthwick has a history with Ford - he was the most important player in his Leicester team and he fits what Borthwick seems to want from a 10. Plus his form is ridiculous right now.

There's a chance. But there is also a reason that I'm hoping for a Farrell straight red and lengthy ban.

Puja

Straight red and a 10 game ban reduced to a £10 fine upon admission of guilt, remorse and apologising to the victims mother

NorthWestRugby wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 6:36 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 12:10 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 11:54 pm So with the dreaded return of …”the fly-half debate” comes the question - is there any course of events tomorrow that would see Ford genuinely considered to replace (not rotate with or shuffle him out to 12) Farrell?

There seems to be so much talk about Ford again but I just don’t see it happening. Smith vs France seemed like a blip, and Borthwick responded very Jonesily to it.

I think there's a chance. Borthwick has a history with Ford - he was the most important player in his Leicester team and he fits what Borthwick seems to want from a 10. Plus his form is ridiculous right now.

There's a chance. But there is also a reason that I'm hoping for a Farrell straight red and lengthy ban.

Puja

Straight red and a 10 game ban reduced to a £10 fine upon admission of guilt, remorse and apologising to the victims mother

and bringing good quality biscuits to the disciplinary hearing.

NorthWestRugby wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 6:36 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 12:10 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 11:54 pm So with the dreaded return of …”the fly-half debate” comes the question - is there any course of events tomorrow that would see Ford genuinely considered to replace (not rotate with or shuffle him out to 12) Farrell?

There seems to be so much talk about Ford again but I just don’t see it happening. Smith vs France seemed like a blip, and Borthwick responded very Jonesily to it.

I think there's a chance. Borthwick has a history with Ford - he was the most important player in his Leicester team and he fits what Borthwick seems to want from a 10. Plus his form is ridiculous right now.

There's a chance. But there is also a reason that I'm hoping for a Farrell straight red and lengthy ban.

Puja

Straight red and a 10 game ban reduced to a £10 fine upon admission of guilt, remorse and apologising to the victims mother

It’s about time one of the disciplinary panel members for the EPS pre-tournament hearings identified themselves.

As a matter of interest, has Ford played many games for England without Farrell at 12? Were they important games and did he justify his presence? What I'm getting at is whether he ever grasped a chance to say, "Pick me at 10 with a proper 12 based on my international performance." Or, is him being a better FH at international level in an either/or consideration just our wishful thinking?

If SB should pick Ford at 10, leaving Farrell out of the XV, he'll be the first head coach to do so. Based on his Smith v France decision, I suppose it is at least a possibility.

The tour to Argentina during the Lions series, England won 2-0 despite fielding a mostly second strong side.

There was a world cup warm up game Vs Wales I think, seem to remember it being in Wales against a stronger side and a rotated England side battered them but Ford had a dodgy game off the tee.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 8:54 am As a matter of interest, has Ford played many games for England without Farrell at 12? Were they important games and did he justify his presence? What I'm getting at is whether he ever grasped a chance to say, "Pick me at 10 with a proper 12 based on my international performance." Or, is him being a better FH at international level in an either/or consideration just our wishful thinking?

If SB should pick Ford at 10, leaving Farrell out of the XV, he'll be the first head coach to do so. Based on his Smith v France decision, I suppose it is at least a possibility.

The last time it happened regularly was 2015 - Ford was first choice 10 for the 6N, warm-up games, and the first match of the RWC, only for the coaching team to panic at the thought of Wales picking some big centres. I imagine Andy leaned over Burt like Grima Wormtongue and whispered, "You know, my boy's a pretty good tackler."

In the Eddie Jones era, the major example I can think of is when he was brought on for Farrell when we'd somehow thrown away a 31-0 lead to Scotland, and was pretty much single-handedly responsible for rescuing a 38-38 draw with the last play of the match. Plus he has been an excellent fly-half at international level despite having Faz at 12, which has allegedly been an insuperable anchor for Cipriani/Smith, so I'd say the case for him is a bit more than wishful thinking.

Puja

Do people feel like Ford was effective at 10 for England in the period before getting dropped? He certainly had good patches alongside Farrell at 12, but all I really remember post-RWC is having horrible kicking tactics/execution for England and everything looking a bit stagnant.

I hope he can bring his full influence to the side as he appears to have done for Leicester and Sale recently. It’s certainly promising the chat of how he assisted the attack/coaches as a non-playing member of the 6 nations camp, though it’s not like that came to much on the pitch.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 9:41 am Do people feel like Ford was effective at 10 for England in the period before getting dropped? He certainly had good patches alongside Farrell at 12, but all I really remember post-RWC is having horrible kicking tactics/execution for England and everything looking a bit stagnant.

I think that was on orders from Jones during his suffering from the RWC final induced PTSD/PSdT.

Ford had an achilles issue post world cup and was trying to make it to the summer before the operation, he almost made it. He should not have been picked for England as he was 80% and not really able to use his running game. Not close to his best at that point.

He still helped Tigers to 6th or 7th and the less European Cup Final. Sarries Championship players lacking fitness probably made it more difficult for him as well as Amor the new attack coach Eddie apparently didn't want.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 9:41 am Do people feel like Ford was effective at 10 for England in the period before getting dropped? He certainly had good patches alongside Farrell at 12, but all I really remember post-RWC is having horrible kicking tactics/execution for England and everything looking a bit stagnant.

Oh no, absolutely not. He was battling injury, as FKAS said, and weird tactics, as Mellsblue said, but he was also not in great form at international level (although the sole reason Leicester didn't go down).

Now though, he looks to be back to his best.

Puja

George Ford is a brilliant 10. His skill level is streets ahead of faz.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 11:16 am George Ford is a brilliant 10. His skill level is streets ahead of faz.

Most of us on here agree but I was simply looking for evidence that any international head coach had ever shared the opinion. I still fear the F/F 10/12 selection most of all as a block to progress.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 11:23 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 11:16 am George Ford is a brilliant 10. His skill level is streets ahead of faz.

Most of us on here agree but I was simply looking for evidence that any international head coach had ever shared the opinion. I still fear the F/F 10/12 selection most of all as a block to progress.

Afraid you'll have to look back to Burt for that. Don't know what that does or doesn't do to your point!

Puja

Yeah I wasn't meaning to lay it all at Ford's feet, I just found it so hard to pay attention to England in that period and could hardly remember why.

I don't think there's much debate on here about Ford's quality overall, I just don't know how well equipped we are to make the most of it. Certainly more than Smith, though I still feel he was dicked about so much in the 6 nations.

I know we're meant to say we like kicking battles and stuff now but I just want to see us use Ford's absurd skill with the ball at the gain-line. Everyone goes on about there being "less space at international level" as if that's an argument against running/attacking with the ball, rather than meaning you should pick the 10 with (by far) the best hands, timing and weight/range of a pass.

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 11:26 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 11:23 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 11:16 am George Ford is a brilliant 10. His skill level is streets ahead of faz.

Most of us on here agree but I was simply looking for evidence that any international head coach had ever shared the opinion. I still fear the F/F 10/12 selection most of all as a block to progress.

Afraid you'll have to look back to Burt for that. Don't know what that does or doesn't do to your point!

Puja

The international coaches who could’ve selected Ford have been Lancaster, Jones and Gatland.
Lancaster probs had him as the better 10 until shi**ing his pants and the bed at RWC 2015.
Jones played him unless we had a physical oppo, due to him being obsessed with the idea that England must be bigger than oppo.
Gatland wouldn’t pick a player of Ford’s ilk in a bajillion years. The man initially picked Farrell over Sexton on one tour, ffs.

Both Ben Curry and DDP missing is a big blow for the Sale back 5, though the back row is starting off quite well balanced with a slight favouring towards mobility.

Feels like it's a big ask for the young back 3 to cope with bombs, but if they can and the tight 5 can handle the physicality of the Sarries pack, the back row should be able to dominate the breakdown.

It all looks very finely balanced, though just as with the Leicester final all those years ago I don't trust that we'll get the rub of the green off the ref and will need to be that much better to take him out of it.