RugbyRebels

Just looked at Planet Rugby's selection of the best XV of the quarter finals. Three English players make it. Farrell, Lawes and Itoje. So ......

Farrell better than Mo'unga, Jalibert, Sanchez, Libbok, Sexton ?
Lawes ahead of Ollivon, Pieter Steph, Kremer/Gonzales, Morgan ?
Itoje ahead of anybody ?

You be the judge.

Ridiculous.

all I know is that Mauvaka was immense and should have bagged the 2 berth

p/d wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 6:08 pm all I know is that Mauvaka was immense and should have bagged the 2 berth

Yep. Ditto Jalibert for 10.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 6:40 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 6:08 pm all I know is that Mauvaka was immense and should have bagged the 2 berth

Yep. Ditto Jalibert for 10.

Yep. No other 10 could pull off a kick like that. Absolute class.

Frankly, not one English player would get in any of the SA, France or Ireland XVs. Oddly enough, that might give us a very slim glimmer of a chance in the SF.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:19 am Frankly, not one English player would get in any of the SA, France or Ireland XVs.

That's no different to before the RWC, as I believe I may have said

If Smith played 10 for South Africa, with that platform, would he kick more goals than Libbok and would he offer a similar attacking threat? That's the only straw I can try and clutch.

No room for Marcus " the Executioner" Smith?

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:03 pm If Smith played 10 for South Africa, with that platform, would he kick more goals than Libbok and would he offer a similar attacking threat? That's the only straw I can try and clutch.

On your straw, how good would Smith be by now if he had been French or Irish? A dominant pack, a SH who uses quick ball properly and a quality pair of centres just might have moved him up the class levels with good coaching.

twitchy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:33 pm No room for Marcus " the Executioner" Smith?

What a good lad he seems though, got battered but kept getting up. Brave, confident and hugely talented. Seems a humble chap too.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:38 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:03 pm If Smith played 10 for South Africa, with that platform, would he kick more goals than Libbok and would he offer a similar attacking threat? That's the only straw I can try and clutch.

On your straw, how good would Smith be by now if he had been French or Irish? A dominant pack, a SH who uses quick ball properly and a quality pair of centres just might have moved him up the class levels with good coaching.

I absolutely agree. If Smith had played for South Africa for the past 18 months would we say that Jalibert was in a different class to him? Or Mo'unga? I suppose one can make that argument for Tuilagi - had he not been injured so often, and had he played for Ireland for the past 4 years, might he be at a similar level to Aki? Perhaps. Is Arundell as exciting as Arendse? Maybe. That's my lot.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:38 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:03 pm If Smith played 10 for South Africa, with that platform, would he kick more goals than Libbok and would he offer a similar attacking threat? That's the only straw I can try and clutch.

On your straw, how good would Smith be by now if he had been French or Irish? A dominant pack, a SH who uses quick ball properly and a quality pair of centres just might have moved him up the class levels with good coaching.

A flyhalf will always look better with a dominant pack.

If Smith was French would he be capped? Probably ahead of Hastoy. He'd probably get in ahead of Libbok for SA but then would have suffered a similar early benching for the better game management of Pollard. King Johnny of Ireland would have restricted his game time over in Ireland.

Game management is the constant question mark for Smith. Something that generally improves with experience.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:20 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:38 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:03 pm If Smith played 10 for South Africa, with that platform, would he kick more goals than Libbok and would he offer a similar attacking threat? That's the only straw I can try and clutch.

On your straw, how good would Smith be by now if he had been French or Irish? A dominant pack, a SH who uses quick ball properly and a quality pair of centres just might have moved him up the class levels with good coaching.

A flyhalf will always look better with a dominant pack.

If Smith was French would he be capped? Probably ahead of Hastoy. He'd probably get in ahead of Libbok for SA but then would have suffered a similar early benching for the better game management of Pollard. King Johnny of Ireland would have restricted his game time over in Ireland.

Game management is the constant question mark for Smith. Something that generally improves with experience.

Agree, to an extent, but other countries back young talent more comfortably than we do.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:44 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:20 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:38 pm

On your straw, how good would Smith be by now if he had been French or Irish? A dominant pack, a SH who uses quick ball properly and a quality pair of centres just might have moved him up the class levels with good coaching.

A flyhalf will always look better with a dominant pack.

If Smith was French would he be capped? Probably ahead of Hastoy. He'd probably get in ahead of Libbok for SA but then would have suffered a similar early benching for the better game management of Pollard. King Johnny of Ireland would have restricted his game time over in Ireland.

Game management is the constant question mark for Smith. Something that generally improves with experience.

Agree, to an extent, but other countries back young talent more comfortably than we do.

I think the problem we have is that the media hype young talent (particularly backs) way out of proportion so when they aren't immediately the next coming they then get bashed in the media and their confidence knocked.

We could field an under 25 team capped in the last 24 months fairly easily. The youth might not be coming as established as quickly as we'd like but I do think the world cup is hindering that a bit.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:27 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:44 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:20 pm

A flyhalf will always look better with a dominant pack.

If Smith was French would he be capped? Probably ahead of Hastoy. He'd probably get in ahead of Libbok for SA but then would have suffered a similar early benching for the better game management of Pollard. King Johnny of Ireland would have restricted his game time over in Ireland.

Game management is the constant question mark for Smith. Something that generally improves with experience.

Agree, to an extent, but other countries back young talent more comfortably than we do.

I think the problem we have is that the media hype young talent (particularly backs) way out of proportion so when they aren't immediately the next coming they then get bashed in the media and their confidence knocked.

We could field an under 25 team capped in the last 24 months fairly easily. The youth might not be coming as established as quickly as we'd like but I do think the world cup is hindering that a bit.

also we tend to over hype and over promote talent who haven't had the right time/coaching/both to develop adequately for the huge leap from prem to intl rugby. And we also over rate players capabilities when they do well in the Prem (our only benchmark tbf, until european games appear)

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:27 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:44 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:20 pm

A flyhalf will always look better with a dominant pack.

If Smith was French would he be capped? Probably ahead of Hastoy. He'd probably get in ahead of Libbok for SA but then would have suffered a similar early benching for the better game management of Pollard. King Johnny of Ireland would have restricted his game time over in Ireland.

Game management is the constant question mark for Smith. Something that generally improves with experience.

Agree, to an extent, but other countries back young talent more comfortably than we do.

I think the problem we have is that the media hype young talent (particularly backs) way out of proportion so when they aren't immediately the next coming they then get bashed in the media and their confidence knocked.

We could field an under 25 team capped in the last 24 months fairly easily. The youth might not be coming as established as quickly as we'd like but I do think the world cup is hindering that a bit.

Partly, I think it's more a case of totally backing special ones. It's a judgement call, obviously. IF, Smith had that potential for example, as a FH, he had to be backed fully in that position.

Another part, IMO, is backing experience for the sake of it when younger alternatives might blossom given a chance - Spencer over Youngs, perhaps.

Finally, there is the new broom factor. We seem reluctant to let a whole new batch revolutionise the attitude. I think the last three years has been painful, to an extent, because of that.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:59 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:27 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:44 pm

Agree, to an extent, but other countries back young talent more comfortably than we do.

I think the problem we have is that the media hype young talent (particularly backs) way out of proportion so when they aren't immediately the next coming they then get bashed in the media and their confidence knocked.

We could field an under 25 team capped in the last 24 months fairly easily. The youth might not be coming as established as quickly as we'd like but I do think the world cup is hindering that a bit.

also we tend to over hype and over promote talent who haven't had the right time/coaching/both to develop adequately for the huge leap from prem to intl rugby. And we also over rate players capabilities when they do well in the Prem (our only benchmark tbf, until european games appear)

The thing is...I've agreed with you to an extent previously. But this World Cup, and the performance of players considered not good enough for England or for the Prem...I think it's a systematic England issue, not a player skill issue.

I'm really coming around to the idea that you put half of this England squad into the French, NZ, SA, or Irish squads for two years, and they'll turn into world class.

The problem is England, not the players, imo. We've had incompetence for years, and we need a change from the very top. Once that happens and we get a team together who are designed to develop a squad and a culture, we will see results.

We're stuck with Sloppy Blunderer for now, but I think we should look into bringing Lancaster back after that. He's learnt a lot and he'll have been more than a decade away from the England culture when the role is available.

Yes, that condemns a generation, but oh well. Maybe Soggy Bottom will surprise us.

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:09 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:59 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:27 pm

I think the problem we have is that the media hype young talent (particularly backs) way out of proportion so when they aren't immediately the next coming they then get bashed in the media and their confidence knocked.

We could field an under 25 team capped in the last 24 months fairly easily. The youth might not be coming as established as quickly as we'd like but I do think the world cup is hindering that a bit.

also we tend to over hype and over promote talent who haven't had the right time/coaching/both to develop adequately for the huge leap from prem to intl rugby. And we also over rate players capabilities when they do well in the Prem (our only benchmark tbf, until european games appear)

I'm really coming around to the idea that you put half of this England squad into the French, NZ, SA, or Irish squads for two years, and they'll turn into world class.

Who are these 16.5 players?

I like the idea of Farrell joining up with his dad in the Ireland set up. Can we make it happen?

I dont think we have bad players. We've got some good ones, just not quite enough of them and not enough of real top end talent.

SB can only pick who is available and developing talent hasnt been much of a success in the English game for a while now.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:45 pm [highlight=]I like the idea of Farrell joining up with his dad in the Ireland set up. [highlight=]Can we make it happen?

I dont think we have bad players. We've got some good ones, just not quite enough of them and not enough of real top end talent.

SB can only pick who is available and developing talent hasnt been much of a success in the English game for a while now.

Yes. Ireland would love to replace one aging plodder with another.

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:09 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:59 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:27 pm

I think the problem we have is that the media hype young talent (particularly backs) way out of proportion so when they aren't immediately the next coming they then get bashed in the media and their confidence knocked.

We could field an under 25 team capped in the last 24 months fairly easily. The youth might not be coming as established as quickly as we'd like but I do think the world cup is hindering that a bit.

also we tend to over hype and over promote talent who haven't had the right time/coaching/both to develop adequately for the huge leap from prem to intl rugby. And we also over rate players capabilities when they do well in the Prem (our only benchmark tbf, until european games appear)

The problem is England, not the players, imo.

its both imo

but of course if you put a good player in a good team, they will look good. Chicken meet egg

fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:45 pm I like the idea of Farrell joining up with his dad in the Ireland set up. Can we make it happen?

I dont think we have bad players. We've got some good ones, just not quite enough of them and not enough of real top end talent.

SB can only pick who is available and developing talent hasnt been much of a success in the English game for a while now.

quite, but then its what I`ve droned on about for years

What we might want to look at is why a number of players have gone backwards when spending time in the national setup.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:39 am What we might want to look at is why a number of players have gone backwards when spending time in the national setup.

Or whether the Prem is reducing in quality and as such the players look better in the league but are then less effective come international rugby.

Last season Saints conceded 86 tries and finished 4th in 2012/13 London Welsh were relegated have only conceded 67, in 2018/19 when we last made the final Falcons finished bottom have conceded 66 (same number Tigers conceded and finished third last season). It's not Saints either it's across the league, it's easier to score now and come international games it's not a big shock when we start to struggle, particularly in defence.