Cokanasiga to Ospreys

[Graigwen]

Only the younger brother, but this will not help us grow our own talent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68734804
.

[Numbers]

Only the younger brother, but this will not help us grow our own talent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68734804
.

I think the main young centre talents are coming from the other regions tbh, not sure who he'd be blocking and I imagine they haven't broken the bank on him, they obviously have Watkin and Williams, is TiaanThomas-Wheeler still there?

[Sandydragon]

A decent acquisition by all accounts, but given current financial issues his offer at Leicester cant have been that great.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Only the younger brother, but this will not help us grow our own talent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68734804
.

I think the main young centre talents are coming from the other regions tbh, not sure who he'd be blocking and I imagine they haven't broken the bank on him, they obviously have Watkin and Williams, is TiaanThomas-Wheeler still there?

Thomas-Wheeler's gone, so I guess Cokanasiga would be blocking Tom Florence (don't know much about him).

it's always annoying when one of the regions gets an English or Irish player into shape (not so bad if they're Southern Hemisphere). To be fair, England do the same for us.

[Sandydragon]

Only the younger brother, but this will not help us grow our own talent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68734804
.

I think the main young centre talents are coming from the other regions tbh, not sure who he'd be blocking and I imagine they haven't broken the bank on him, they obviously have Watkin and Williams, is TiaanThomas-Wheeler still there?

Thomas-Wheeler's gone, so I guess Cokanasiga would be blocking Tom Florence (don't know much about him).

it's always annoying when one of the regions gets an English or Irish player into shape (not so bad if they're Southern Hemisphere). To be fair, England do the same for us.

I think this is more likely to be true at the moment. Provided we get them back, that's the main thing!

[Son of Mathonwy]

I think the main young centre talents are coming from the other regions tbh, not sure who he'd be blocking and I imagine they haven't broken the bank on him, they obviously have Watkin and Williams, is TiaanThomas-Wheeler still there?

Thomas-Wheeler's gone, so I guess Cokanasiga would be blocking Tom Florence (don't know much about him).

it's always annoying when one of the regions gets an English or Irish player into shape (not so bad if they're Southern Hemisphere). To be fair, England do the same for us.

I think this is more likely to be true at the moment. Provided we get them back, that's the main thing!

This.

The WRU need to stop the English academies from locking our guys in to playing for England's junior teams though. Hopefully they're talking to World Rugby about it.

[Sandydragon]

Thomas-Wheeler's gone, so I guess Cokanasiga would be blocking Tom Florence (don't know much about him).

it's always annoying when one of the regions gets an English or Irish player into shape (not so bad if they're Southern Hemisphere). To be fair, England do the same for us.

I think this is more likely to be true at the moment. Provided we get them back, that's the main thing!

This.

The WRU need to stop the English academies from locking our guys in to playing for England's junior teams though. Hopefully they're talking to World Rugby about it.

Totally agree. It's completely unethical.

[Which Tyler]

The WRU need to stop the English academies from locking our guys in to playing for England's junior teams though. Hopefully they're talking to World Rugby about it.

Sorry, but... who's doing that?

No-one's preventing their academy kids from turning out for a different country's age grade that I've noticed. Age grade has traditionally been about where that player is playing, as it doesn't lock them in to anything (except a few weird nations who insisted that age-grade internationals were senior internationals, and should lock players to a nation for evermore - which was never ethical).

Just take my own club, Bath, for example.
Are you suggesting that Hennesey, Emmanuel or Harrison haven't turned out for Wales? Or Lock (and a couple of others I can't recall right now) for Scotland?

Please note - asking someone who's qualified for England a spot in the England side is not remotely "locking [them] in to playing for England's junior teams" players aren't slaves - they have free choice.

[pompey-zebra]

The WRU need to stop the English academies from locking our guys in to playing for England's junior teams though. Hopefully they're talking to World Rugby about it.

Sorry, but... who's doing that?

No-one's preventing their academy kids from turning out for a different country's age grade that I've noticed. Age grade has traditionally been about where that player is playing, as it doesn't lock them in to anything (except a few weird nations who insisted that age-grade internationals were senior internationals, and should lock players to a nation for evermore - which was never ethical).

Just take my own club, Bath, for example.
Are you suggesting that Hennesey, Emmanuel or Harrison haven't turned out for Wales? Or Lock (and a couple of others I can't recall right now) for Scotland?

Please note - asking someone who's qualified for England a spot in the England side is not remotely "locking [them] in to playing for England's junior teams" players aren't slaves - they have free choice.

I copied this from an article in Wales online;
When dual-qualified players sign a contract with an English club's academy, many have to sign a form which states if they get selected in an English Elite Player squad they have to go with them at age-grade level.

[Which Tyler]

Well, if Wale Online said it, it must be true

[pompey-zebra]

Well, if Wale Online said it, it must be true

Touche.

Although it would be sad if its "top 10 hardest men in Welsh rugby" was in some way inaccurate.

[Puja]

The WRU need to stop the English academies from locking our guys in to playing for England's junior teams though. Hopefully they're talking to World Rugby about it.

Sorry, but... who's doing that?

No-one's preventing their academy kids from turning out for a different country's age grade that I've noticed. Age grade has traditionally been about where that player is playing, as it doesn't lock them in to anything (except a few weird nations who insisted that age-grade internationals were senior internationals, and should lock players to a nation for evermore - which was never ethical).

Just take my own club, Bath, for example.
Are you suggesting that Hennesey, Emmanuel or Harrison haven't turned out for Wales? Or Lock (and a couple of others I can't recall right now) for Scotland?

Please note - asking someone who's qualified for England a spot in the England side is not remotely "locking [them] in to playing for England's junior teams" players aren't slaves - they have free choice.

I copied this from an article in Wales online;
When dual-qualified players sign a contract with an English club's academy, many have to sign a form which states if they get selected in an English Elite Player squad they have to go with them at age-grade level.

It's true that, in order for a player to be considered an EQP (for RFU funding), they have to sign a form saying they won't turn down a call-up to the senior EPS if it comes, but there's absolutely no restrictions on age groups as that doesn't stop them from being English qualified (and, if they do turn down a senior England call, worst that happens is that the club no longer gets funding for them). For example, Reffell got money for Leicester because he was an EQP, up until he was capped for Wales, despite playing for Wales age grade all the way through.

I think that's someone at WOL getting confused and conflating the senior and age-grade situations together.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Sorry, but... who's doing that?

No-one's preventing their academy kids from turning out for a different country's age grade that I've noticed. Age grade has traditionally been about where that player is playing, as it doesn't lock them in to anything (except a few weird nations who insisted that age-grade internationals were senior internationals, and should lock players to a nation for evermore - which was never ethical).

Just take my own club, Bath, for example.
Are you suggesting that Hennesey, Emmanuel or Harrison haven't turned out for Wales? Or Lock (and a couple of others I can't recall right now) for Scotland?

Please note - asking someone who's qualified for England a spot in the England side is not remotely "locking [them] in to playing for England's junior teams" players aren't slaves - they have free choice.

I copied this from an article in Wales online;
When dual-qualified players sign a contract with an English club's academy, many have to sign a form which states if they get selected in an English Elite Player squad they have to go with them at age-grade level.

It's true that, in order for a player to be considered an EQP (for RFU funding), they have to sign a form saying they won't turn down a call-up to the senior EPS if it comes, but there's absolutely no restrictions on age groups as that doesn't stop them from being English qualified (and, if they do turn down a senior England call, worst that happens is that the club no longer gets funding for them). For example, Reffell got money for Leicester because he was an EQP, up until he was capped for Wales, despite playing for Wales age grade all the way through.

I think that's someone at WOL getting confused and conflating the senior and age-grade situations together.

Puja

I can't believe the disrespect shown here to the fine journalists at WOL. Thank goodness one of you has faith, and I quote:

if Wale Online said it, it must be true

(I've carefully stripped them of context to allow the true meaning to shine through.)

[Which Tyler]

if Wale Online said it, it must be true

(I've carefully stripped them of context to allow the true meaning to shine through.)

I was conceding defeat... honest

I can't believe the disrespect shown here to the fine journalists at WOL.

They have journalists? I'd kinda assumed it was AI with a "maximum clickbait" algorithm attached.

[Sandydragon]

Sorry, but... who's doing that?

No-one's preventing their academy kids from turning out for a different country's age grade that I've noticed. Age grade has traditionally been about where that player is playing, as it doesn't lock them in to anything (except a few weird nations who insisted that age-grade internationals were senior internationals, and should lock players to a nation for evermore - which was never ethical).

Just take my own club, Bath, for example.
Are you suggesting that Hennesey, Emmanuel or Harrison haven't turned out for Wales? Or Lock (and a couple of others I can't recall right now) for Scotland?

Please note - asking someone who's qualified for England a spot in the England side is not remotely "locking [them] in to playing for England's junior teams" players aren't slaves - they have free choice.

I copied this from an article in Wales online;
When dual-qualified players sign a contract with an English club's academy, many have to sign a form which states if they get selected in an English Elite Player squad they have to go with them at age-grade level.

It's true that, in order for a player to be considered an EQP (for RFU funding), they have to sign a form saying they won't turn down a call-up to the senior EPS if it comes, but there's absolutely no restrictions on age groups as that doesn't stop them from being English qualified (and, if they do turn down a senior England call, worst that happens is that the club no longer gets funding for them). For example, Reffell got money for Leicester because he was an EQP, up until he was capped for Wales, despite playing for Wales age grade all the way through.

I think that's someone at WOL getting confused and conflating the senior and age-grade situations together.

Puja

This isnt exactly new. From 2017:

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/s ... ege-675696

Come and have an educational scholarship with us and then get picked by a top clubs academy and sign an agreement to prioritise the English senior squad. All very influential on young players.

[Puja]

I copied this from an article in Wales online;
When dual-qualified players sign a contract with an English club's academy, many have to sign a form which states if they get selected in an English Elite Player squad they have to go with them at age-grade level.

It's true that, in order for a player to be considered an EQP (for RFU funding), they have to sign a form saying they won't turn down a call-up to the senior EPS if it comes, but there's absolutely no restrictions on age groups as that doesn't stop them from being English qualified (and, if they do turn down a senior England call, worst that happens is that the club no longer gets funding for them). For example, Reffell got money for Leicester because he was an EQP, up until he was capped for Wales, despite playing for Wales age grade all the way through.

I think that's someone at WOL getting confused and conflating the senior and age-grade situations together.

Puja

This isnt exactly new. From 2017:

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/s ... ege-675696

Come and have an educational scholarship with us and then get picked by a top clubs academy and sign an agreement to prioritise the English senior squad. All very influential on young players.

And, as can be seen by dual-qualified players like Rees-Zammit, Reffell, Costelow, Griffin, Tshiunza, Jenkins all playing for Wales age grade and then onto Wales, while being contracted by English clubs, it's hardly placing players in shackles and forcing them into a white shirt at knifepoint. The other argument can be made (and has, on the EMB) that it's a bit annoying that we're allowing our educational scholarships and academy places go towards training and developing players that they go on to play for Wales, rather than focussing on English talent, plus that the RFU is spending money to reward clubs for picking EQP, that then end up turning out for Wales (Rowlands, Tompkins, Lloyd, Francis, etc).

Which players have you actually lost that have gone to an English school/academy and were corrupted into Englishness? The only one I can think of in recent times is Feyi-Waboso - every other recent example is of Wales outsourcing your player development to the English system and then getting the players back again.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

It's true that, in order for a player to be considered an EQP (for RFU funding), they have to sign a form saying they won't turn down a call-up to the senior EPS if it comes, but there's absolutely no restrictions on age groups as that doesn't stop them from being English qualified (and, if they do turn down a senior England call, worst that happens is that the club no longer gets funding for them). For example, Reffell got money for Leicester because he was an EQP, up until he was capped for Wales, despite playing for Wales age grade all the way through.

I think that's someone at WOL getting confused and conflating the senior and age-grade situations together.

Puja

This isnt exactly new. From 2017:

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/s ... ege-675696

Come and have an educational scholarship with us and then get picked by a top clubs academy and sign an agreement to prioritise the English senior squad. All very influential on young players.

And, as can be seen by dual-qualified players like Rees-Zammit, Reffell, Costelow, Griffin, Tshiunza, Jenkins all playing for Wales age grade and then onto Wales, while being contracted by English clubs, it's hardly placing players in shackles and forcing them into a white shirt at knifepoint. The other argument can be made (and has, on the EMB) that it's a bit annoying that we're allowing our educational scholarships and academy places go towards training and developing players that they go on to play for Wales, rather than focussing on English talent, plus that the RFU is spending money to reward clubs for picking EQP, that then end up turning out for Wales (Rowlands, Tompkins, Lloyd, Francis, etc).

Which players have you actually lost that have gone to an English school/academy and were corrupted into Englishness? The only one I can think of in recent times is Feyi-Waboso - every other recent example is of Wales outsourcing your player development to the English system and then getting the players back again.

Puja

How many of your U18 and U21 teams were born in Wales? Should they not be playing for Wales, since they were born there? Im very happy that its low numbers, but ideally it should be none. Youre exploiting the economic power imbalance with children and that leaves a very sour taste.

Rowlands, Tompkins etc were at least adult and could make an informed decision. And I dont think any were on the English radar at the time. If the English clubs want to focus on local talent then they should do exactly that.

[Puja]

This isnt exactly new. From 2017:

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/s ... ege-675696

Come and have an educational scholarship with us and then get picked by a top clubs academy and sign an agreement to prioritise the English senior squad. All very influential on young players.

And, as can be seen by dual-qualified players like Rees-Zammit, Reffell, Costelow, Griffin, Tshiunza, Jenkins all playing for Wales age grade and then onto Wales, while being contracted by English clubs, it's hardly placing players in shackles and forcing them into a white shirt at knifepoint. The other argument can be made (and has, on the EMB) that it's a bit annoying that we're allowing our educational scholarships and academy places go towards training and developing players that they go on to play for Wales, rather than focussing on English talent, plus that the RFU is spending money to reward clubs for picking EQP, that then end up turning out for Wales (Rowlands, Tompkins, Lloyd, Francis, etc).

Which players have you actually lost that have gone to an English school/academy and were corrupted into Englishness? The only one I can think of in recent times is Feyi-Waboso - every other recent example is of Wales outsourcing your player development to the English system and then getting the players back again.

Puja

How many of your U18 and U21 teams were born in Wales?

I don't know. How many?

Puja

[Which Tyler]

I don't know. How many?

That, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?

Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.

We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.

[Puja]

I don't know. How many?

That, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?

Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.

We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.

I got bored and researched the England U18 matchday squad that was just named to play Georgia. It's hard to find birthplaces for 18 year olds without getting very stalky, but a quick google suggests that there are exactly zero Welsh players in that side who have been inveigled into playing for England.

Perhaps it is a problem that doesn't actually exist and we're not actually "exploiting the power imbalance with children"? Who can tell.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

I don't know. How many?

That, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?

Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.

We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.

Which is why signing agreements to represent England, even if it is just a con to get money from the RFU is wrong.

And that’s a false metic if ever there was one

[Sandydragon]

I don't know. How many?

That, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?

Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.

We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.

I got bored and researched the England U18 matchday squad that was just named to play Georgia. It's hard to find birthplaces for 18 year olds without getting very stalky, but a quick google suggests that there are exactly zero Welsh players in that side who have been inveigled into playing for England.

Perhaps it is a problem that doesn't actually exist and we're not actually "exploiting the power imbalance with children"? Who can tell.

Puja

Yet the English got very upset at Wales poaching adult players who are in a far better position to make a decision on their future. Just a tad hypocritical.

This may be a bigger problem for the future when those dozens of young welsh players poached to England start to show promise and get snapped up into the English senior teams. We can see what happened with south sea islanders going to New Zealand to get an idea of the damage that causes.

[Puja]

I don't know. How many?

That, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?

Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.

We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.

Which is why signing agreements to represent England, even if it is just a con to get money from the RFU is wrong.

And that’s a false metic if ever there was one

Why? Why should the RFU pay money for EQP to a player who doesn't want to play for England? They don't *have* to sign it and, if they do, they don't *have* to stand by it - Rees-Zammit didn't.

This may be a bigger problem for the future when those dozens of young welsh players poached to England start to show promise and get snapped up into the English senior teams. We can see what happened with south sea islanders going to New Zealand to get an idea of the damage that causes.

Who are these "dozens of young Welsh players" who have been convinced to abandon Wales? Can you name three just for a start?

At the moment, I'm seeing moral outrage about a problem that doesn't seem to exist.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Who knows if WOL are correct about this but if they are ie dual qualified players are being given financial inducements to turn out for the richer union, then just like I wouldn't be happy for NZ to do this to Tonga, I don't like to see England doing this to Wales. That it's all wrapped up in a lovely private school blazer only makes it more distasteful to my rabidly left-wing self

If they're wrong then jeezus that's poor journalism.

In the end, as long as no one is contractually bound to play for a senior national team then at the moment there's no colossal harm done, we'll only lose fake Welshmen like Feyi-Waboso. If the inducements are so great that all our best players get pinched I'll have a different view.

Of course, while Welsh rugby is poorly run we do benefit from a number of quality players having been developed outside our system. Shame it's only England though, better if we could outsource our development to NZ .

[oldbackrow]

That, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?

Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.

We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.

Which is why signing agreements to represent England, even if it is just a con to get money from the RFU is wrong.

And that’s a false metic if ever there was one

Why? Why should the RFU pay money for EQP to a player who doesn't want to play for England? They don't *have* to sign it and, if they do, they don't *have* to stand by it - Rees-Zammit didn't.

This may be a bigger problem for the future when those dozens of young welsh players poached to England start to show promise and get snapped up into the English senior teams. We can see what happened with south sea islanders going to New Zealand to get an idea of the damage that causes.

Who are these "dozens of young Welsh players" who have been convinced to abandon Wales? Can you name three just for a start?

At the moment, I'm seeing moral outrage about a problem that doesn't seem to exist.

Puja

Didnt Gareth Edwards and JPR Williams benefit by going to Millfield School without being forced to play for England?

Surely 'poached' would refer to players who are already professional players being lured by the offer of a white shirt ("project players"). seems to me that the 'poaching' is pretty much the other way around!