RugbyRebels

I thought I'd get in early and avoid 10 duplicate threads popping up at the same time. Alternatively Puja you can just bundle it all in to the Bristol v Sarries thread.

England announce Six Nations squad - LIVE

A very good morning and welcome along to LIVE coverage as England prepare to announce their squad for the upcoming Six Nations. Steve Borthwick has plenty to consider ahead of a crucial campaign, and will confirm his selection at 11.30am GMT with little more than a fortnight until his side kick off their tournament against Ireland.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... st-1928865

Am hoping we get a surprise with Willis, Atkinson and Pollock all getting the call.

The Mail reckon Itoje replacing George as captain.

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:59 am The Mail reckon Itoje replacing George as captain.

Gods, I hope so.

There's been no real leaks this time, which is odd. Previous England squads and teams under Sloppy Beaglekeeping have been announced in the news beforehand like they're a Prime Minister's policy speech - I wonder if that's a change in emphasis or potentially even the changes in backroom personnel cutting off the leaks.

Puja

Puja or any other expert, how many of each position does he need to name? How many front row forwards, locks, back row, etc?

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:59 am The Mail reckon Itoje replacing George as captain.

That's good. It has been evident that George is not the player he was, as you'd expect with his age. I think he's on his way out. Still useful, but his star is definitely waning.

I would also be flabbergasted if Cole is in the squad.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 10:06 am Puja or any other expert, how many of each position does he need to name? How many front row forwards, locks, back row, etc?

There's no restrictions in the rules on player positions, AFAIK, but he's likely going to name 19-20 forwards and 16-17 backs, with 3 of each type of prop, 3 hookers, 3 9s and 3 10s, just because they're such specialist positions that you need to have two spares so you can make a matchday squad if there's a minor injury. He may look to only take 5 props on the basis that AOF can play both sides, but I hope he doesn't.

Puja

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 10:13 amI would also be flabbergasted if Cole is in the squad.

Would be an active insult to Heyes, who has responded very well to being dropped from the AIs.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 10:18 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 10:06 am Puja or any other expert, how many of each position does he need to name? How many front row forwards, locks, back row, etc?

There's no restrictions in the rules on player positions, AFAIK, but he's likely going to name 19-20 forwards and 16-17 backs, with 3 of each type of prop, 3 hookers, 3 9s and 3 10s, just because they're such specialist positions that you need to have two spares so you can make a matchday squad if there's a minor injury. He may look to only take 5 props on the basis that AOF can play both sides, but I hope he doesn't.

Puja

Thanks Puja

I'd assume six props. I'm hoping we see Cole and Davison moved on for Heyes and AOF. Rodd or Obano in for the retired Marler.

Come on Seb Atkinson or Ojomoh getting a look in at 12.

I'd go for something like the below I think

Genge
Obano
Rodd

LCD
Blake
Blamire/Dan

Stuart
Heyes
Davison/AOF

Itoje
Martin (although I have to say I'm not yet 100% convinced... I hope to be)
Coles
Arthur Clark/Jonny Hill/Ben Bamber - someone else with some ballast.

Hill
Chessum
CCS
Tom Willis
Ben Earl
Ben Curry
Pollock/Pepper/Pearson


Mitchell
Spencer
Quirke

M Smith
F Smith
Curve ball here... Slade. Provides cover at 10, 12 and 13. Makes more sense that Ford who only covers 10.

S Atkinson
W Butt/Ojomoh
O Lawrence
Northmore/Beard

Freeman
Sleightholme
Roebuck
Ibitoye if fit...

Steward
Hendy

You're not convinced by Martin?! I know he hasn't hit the heights of that SA world cup game every time since, but he feels like just the partner we need for Itoje. As long as he can stay fit. I'd love to see more of those big hits we were seeing when he came through as a 6 though.

I'd go pretty similar with Chessum still being third choice lock, but realistically an option at 6.

George and Ford are both a bit past it, but I think their reliability and influence on a young squad is definitely still worth something.

Murley ahead of Ibitoye for me.

Feels like Pollock is winning the tyro/wildcard option for the last backrow spot at the moment.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:00 am You're not convinced by Martin?! I know he hasn't hit the heights of that SA world cup game every time since, but he feels like just the partner we need for Itoje. As long as he can stay fit. I'd love to see more of those big hits we were seeing when he came through as a 6 though.

I'd go pretty similar with Chessum still being third choice lock, but realistically an option at 6.

George and Ford are both a bit past it, but I think their reliability and influence on a young squad is definitely still worth something.

Murley ahead of Ibitoye for me.

Feels like Pollock is winning the tyro/wildcard option for the last backrow spot at the moment.

I thought I was about to be convinced by Martin, and am hoping I still will be. I've just seen him be a bit quiet in the odd game since that SA game. He doesn't quite seem to have the same power with ball in hand as he does when melting people either. I love the tackling too, but I'm not sure fundamentally if the odd big hit close to a ruck is all it's cracked up to be. Underhill's tackles often seem to be really important hits. Maybe I'm talking rubbish. I like Martin and want him to succeed, just not sure he's 100% nailed on. Chessum is an excellent all round rugby player for me, looks such a natural at everything.

I hear you on George and Ford - I just think Borthers needs to be bold. We should be trying to win the world cup, win everything - these guys have been involved for a long time and just feel a bit tainted to me. I think we need to rip it up and move on. New people, more athletic people too maybe in the case of Jamie George.

By the way if I was Borthers I'd be calling Alfie Barbeary and telling him to become a Hooker by any means possible, or go a bit Rassie and tell him to cover both 8 and reserve/bench no 2. We need bold change if we're going to suddenly jump forward. Steve ain't got the minerals though methinks.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:10 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:00 am You're not convinced by Martin?! I know he hasn't hit the heights of that SA world cup game every time since, but he feels like just the partner we need for Itoje. As long as he can stay fit. I'd love to see more of those big hits we were seeing when he came through as a 6 though.

I'd go pretty similar with Chessum still being third choice lock, but realistically an option at 6.

George and Ford are both a bit past it, but I think their reliability and influence on a young squad is definitely still worth something.

Murley ahead of Ibitoye for me.

Feels like Pollock is winning the tyro/wildcard option for the last backrow spot at the moment.

I thought I was about to be convinced by Martin, and am hoping I still will be. I've just seen him be a bit quiet in the odd game since that SA game. He doesn't quite seem to have the same power with ball in hand as he does when melting people either. I love the tackling too, but I'm not sure fundamentally if the odd big hit close to a ruck is all it's cracked up to be. Underhill's tackles often seem to be really important hits. Maybe I'm talking rubbish. I like Martin and want him to succeed, just not sure he's 100% nailed on. Chessum is an excellent all round rugby player for me, looks such a natural at everything.

I hear you on George and Ford - I just think Borthers needs to be bold. We should be trying to win the world cup, win everything - these guys have been involved for a long time and just feel a bit tainted to me. I think we need to rip it up and move on. New people, more athletic people too maybe in the case of Jamie George.

By the way if I was Borthers I'd be calling Alfie Barbeary and telling him to become a Hooker by any means possible, or go a bit Rassie and tell him to cover both 8 and reserve/bench no 2. We need bold change if we're going to suddenly jump forward. Steve ain't got the minerals though methinks.

The main thing that concerns me about Martin is his occasional bouts of clog-hands where he can't catch anything. He's a great carrier, but he drops simple passes far too often for my liking.

It's not enough of a concern that it obviates all the other good things about him, mind.

Puja

36-player training squad

Forwards

Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 66 caps) – vice-captain
Fin Baxter (Harlequins, 6 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 7 caps)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale Sharks, 44 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 97 caps) – vice-captain
Theo Dan (Saracens, 16 caps)

Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 45 caps)
Asher Opoku-Fordjour (Sale Sharks, 1 cap)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 7 caps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens, 88 caps) – captain
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 19 caps)
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)
Alex Coles (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)

Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins, 11 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, 6 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 56 caps)
Ted Hill (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)

Tom Willis (Saracens, 1 cap)
Ben Earl (Saracens, 37 caps)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 20 caps)



Backs

Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 18 caps)
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 16 caps)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 11 caps)

Fin Smith (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 39 caps)
George Ford (Sale Sharks, 98 caps)

Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 31 caps)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 69 caps)
Oscar Beard (Harlequins, uncapped)

Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 15 caps)
Cadan Murley (Harlequins, uncapped)
Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks, 3 caps)
Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)

Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 69 caps)


Rehabilitation: Afolabi Fasogbon (Gloucester Rugby), Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs), George Furbank (Northampton Saints), Gabriel Ibitoye (Bristol Bears), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Luke Northmore (Harlequins), and Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby).


Edited to rearrange into a better format

At first glance that looks OK doesn't it? Anyone that's obviously missing?

No "ooh that's quite exciting...wasn't expecting that"

...but no Henry Pollock, which I had been told would be the case (by someone from the junior set up), and no Seb Atkinson (which I wasn't expecting, frankly)

Hey, that’s not bad

Spencer out for Randall is a slight surprise but I can live with that.

No Atkinson obviously.

Daly there as a 15?

TheNomad wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:34 am At first glance that looks OK doesn't it? Anyone that's obviously missing?

No "ooh that's quite exciting...wasn't expecting that"

...but no Henry Pollock

Seb Atkinson!

- Centres look pretty dire still.
- only one full back so guess Smith will get lots of minutes there (suppose Daly could play there).
- Dombrant still miraculously in there.
- Hill unlikely to play but good to see he’s broken his way into the squad.
- Interesting rehab list with ibitoye and fasogbon mentioned.
- Shame no Quirke but he needs a decent stretch without injury I guess. Hopefully plays the A game.

TheNomad wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:34 am At first glance that looks OK doesn't it? Anyone that's obviously missing?

No "ooh that's quite exciting...wasn't expecting that"

...but no Henry Pollock, which I had been told would be the case (by someone from the junior set up), and no Seb Atkinson (which I wasn't expecting, frankly)

Hill and TWillis in is good. No Ewels or Isiekwe is good. No Spencer is excellent. Itoje as captain is excellent.

Disappointed by Slade still being there and not thrilled by Daly (although I will admit to not having seen much of him this season where I understand he's been good) - would've preferred SAtkinson or Ojomoh getting a chance to at least show what they have in training. We're going to play Slade/Lawrence, again, despite it rarely working. Not sure of the purpose of Dombrandt, but there we are - would've been happier with Pollock in to learn the ropes, rather than try and make Dombrandt work again.

Puja

No Dan Cole! How did I miss that?

I honestly Dombrandt still being there is the biggest surprise to me. His contributions have been blindly dismissed by some, but overall he still just doesn't look like he has test physicality/intensity to what he's doing. I'd fully accepted the moment has passed for him as an international but clearly Borthwick still sees something there. Agreed that this may as well be Pollock or another 'intern'.

I do feel for Spencer, despite not actually rating him massively highly. I like Randall but not sure I trust him to control a game. Maybe that's unfair?

Centres are still disappointing. I'd want to pick 12. Dingwall 13. Beard from that, but that would be idiotic.

You can pick a good 23 from that but it would really require too many changes.

Best we can probably hope for is Dingwall to come in for Slade at 12 with Lawrence at 13, chessum and Mitchell to come back in and Willis to come in for Earl/Curry.

If players stay fit, we’d definitely be much better for having Chessum, Mitchell and Willis in the side and CCS, JVP and Earl/Curry on the bench.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:41 am Hill and TWillis in is good. No Ewels or Isiekwe is good. No Spencer is excellent. Itoje as captain is excellent.

Agree with all that

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:41 am Disappointed by Slade still being there and not thrilled by Daly (although I will admit to not having seen much of him this season where I understand he's been good) - would've preferred SAtkinson or Ojomoh getting a chance to at least show what they have in training. We're going to play Slade/Lawrence, again, despite it rarely working. Not sure of the purpose of Dombrandt, but there we are - would've been happier with Pollock in to learn the ropes, rather than try and make Dombrandt work again.

And I agree with that too. Very clearly the backs weren't working as well as they should/could in the AIs. I think it's odd that no attempt to shake that up has been made.

Slade isn't the answer. We all admire his talent but he's always flattered to deceive, and that isn't going to change at this stage of his career.

I'm also not totally sold on Lawrence. At least bring some fresh blood in at centre and see how they fare. Strange decision.

And Dombrandt - he's just not going to be the right answer is he? So why not roll the dice on someone that might, or who at least would benefit from being part of the group

TheNomad wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:49 am

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:41 am Hill and TWillis in is good. No Ewels or Isiekwe is good. No Spencer is excellent. Itoje as captain is excellent.

Agree with all that

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:41 am Disappointed by Slade still being there and not thrilled by Daly (although I will admit to not having seen much of him this season where I understand he's been good) - would've preferred SAtkinson or Ojomoh getting a chance to at least show what they have in training. We're going to play Slade/Lawrence, again, despite it rarely working. Not sure of the purpose of Dombrandt, but there we are - would've been happier with Pollock in to learn the ropes, rather than try and make Dombrandt work again.

And I agree with that too. Very clearly the backs weren't working as well as they should/could in the AIs. I think it's odd that no attempt to shake that up has been made.

Slade isn't the answer. We all admire his talent but he's always flattered to deceive, and that isn't going to change at this stage of his career.

I'm also not totally sold on Lawrence. At least bring some fresh blood in at centre and see how they fare. Strange decision.

And Dombrandt - he's just not going to be the right answer is he? So why not roll the dice on someone that might, or who at least would benefit from being part of the group

I would actually rather have Dombrandt start at 8 than Earl ( though as you all know I would be more than happy for the latter to start at 7) - I think 6 Hill 8 T Willis 7 Earl or 6 CCS 8 Dombrandt 7 Earl or er even 6 B/T Curry 8 T Willis 7 Earl would do a reasonable job in terms of back row balance.

Btw Slade should have been be pensioned off to club rugby by now - for me never, ever an exciting or especially quick 13 at test level though I had more time for him as a play making type of 12 or 15 back in the day

About as good as we could hope for in general. Centres are of course pretty dire and Dombrandt still has the blackmail evidence to keep himself involved, Pollock instead would have been a significant improvement.

Slightly surprised OHC isn't getting a go. Top of the Prem try scorer charts and has developed a knack for regathering box kicks. Should be right up Safe Ballgame's street.