The great "English rugby should / shouldn't select overseas based players" discussion.

[Oakboy]

{Mod} Moved from the other thread by request

Yes. Not so much here, but so much of what I’ve read is just negative crap with few proposed solutions other than ‘allow the players in France to play’, which I strongly suspect would make very little difference in the short term and cause much bigger problems in the long term.

As a compromise, would our club scene become so out of kilter if SB was allowed to pick, say, a maximum of two France-based players in any squad?

To be fair, if that was the case HE might not pick any currently.

[jngf]

Yes. Not so much here, but so much of what I’ve read is just negative crap with few proposed solutions other than ‘allow the players in France to play’, which I strongly suspect would make very little difference in the short term and cause much bigger problems in the long term.

As a compromise, would our club scene become so out of kilter if SB was allowed to pick, say, a maximum of two France-based players in any squad?

To be fair, if that was the case HE might not pick any currently.

Every time Jack Willis got a start he seemed to get at least one try himself

[Mikey Brown]

But in the real world... he has scored a try against both Chile and Italy.

He has 14 caps and I don't beleive anyone recalls any of those being particularly outstanding. Yes he looks class at Toulouse. In reality he's done little more than Dombrandt or Mercer at international level. I certainly would have given him more chances in the period that he was fit and available, but am I forgetting about some incredible performances among those caps?

I can't believe I've been suckered in to this again. It's probably the most infuriating repeat discussion we have on here.

[FKAS]

But in the real world... he has scored a try against both Chile and Italy.

He has 14 caps and I don't beleive anyone recalls any of those being particularly outstanding. Yes he looks class at Toulouse. In reality he's done little more than Dombrandt or Mercer at international level. I certainly would have given him more chances in the period that he was fit and available, but am I forgetting about some incredible performances among those caps?

I can't believe I've been suckered in to this again. It's probably the most infuriating repeat discussion we have on here.

Playing well for your club but being unavailable at international level is a super power. Remember for years Steffon Armitage was the best backrow England every produced if you listened to some pundits.

[jngf]

But in the real world... he has scored a try against both Chile and Italy.

He has 14 caps and I don't beleive anyone recalls any of those being particularly outstanding. Yes he looks class at Toulouse. In reality he's done little more than Dombrandt or Mercer at international level. I certainly would have given him more chances in the period that he was fit and available, but am I forgetting about some incredible performances among those caps?

I can't believe I've been suckered in to this again. It's probably the most infuriating repeat discussion we have on here.

Mikey, honestly not trying to sucker you in, but to conflate Jack Willis’ performances with those of Dombrandt and Mercer is simply incorrect. In those test appearances he did what very few quality backrows with an X factor at club level manage to pull off ( Underhill with his defence skills aside) and translate his “super power” namely preeminent fetching skills to the test stage. I’m personally fed up of this self-imposed stricture that prevents us fielding a Lions Class openside for the benefit of the National side just to protect a plodding (imo) Premiership rugby scene.

I’d go further ( at the risk of brickbats ) and say I don’t think the Premiership can support more than 4 or 5 clubs tops in the professional game and it’s not a great feeder system to our national side when it seemingly can’t even provide a decent inside centre!

[Which Tyler]

Here you go - have at it; but pretty please, can we isolate the circular discussion to this thread, so that everyone else can quietly ignore it.

[Puja]

Here you go - have at it; but pretty please, can we isolate the circular discussion to this thread, so that everyone else can quietly ignore it.

Good work - moved the posts across so it can be done here.

Mod

[Mellsblue]

Can’t we just set up a poll to find out who thinks it’s a good idea to not select players playing overseas? I was in a tiny minority of thinking it a bad idea 3/4 years ago and I’ve changed my mind now that the Prem has, mostly through self inflicted wounds, gone from arguably the strongest league to probably the weakest.

[Mikey Brown]

Can’t we just set up a poll to find out who thinks it’s a good idea to not select players playing overseas? I was in a tiny minority of thinking it a good idea 3/4 years ago and I’ve changed my mind now that the Prem has, mostly through self inflicted wounds, gone from arguably the strongest league to probably the weakest.

That won’t stop it. I’m not even convinced this thread will, like the failed JNGF backrow bonanza thread, but I applaud the effort.

Does a mod know if I delete my posts from here if I’ll stop seeing the new posts icon thing? I’m going to do everything I can to never interact with this debate again.

[Puja]

Does a mod know if I delete my posts from here if I’ll stop seeing the new posts icon thing? I’m going to do everything I can to never interact with this debate again.

Won't make a difference, I'm afraid.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

That won’t stop it. I’m not even convinced this thread will, like the failed JNGF backrow bonanza thread, but I applaud the effort.

Inevitably.
I see this thread like getting a scratching post for my cats - it won't stop them from ripping the sofa to shreds, but it might, just might, mean that they do it less frequently, and add an extra year to the sofa's lifespan.

[jngf]

Can’t we just set up a poll to find out who thinks it’s a good idea to not select players playing overseas? I was in a tiny minority of thinking it a good idea 3/4 years ago and I’ve changed my mind now that the Prem has, mostly through self inflicted wounds, gone from arguably the strongest league to probably the weakest.

That won’t stop it. I’m not even convinced this thread will, like the failed JNGF backrow bonanza thread, but I applaud the effort.

Does a mod know if I delete my posts from here if I’ll stop seeing the new posts icon thing? I’m going to do everything I can to never interact with this debate again.

Given this is the first time I’ve heard of this am I owed any backdated royalties ?

[Mikey Brown]

Damn. 2019.

http://www.rugbyrebels.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4210

It seems my fears were unfounded.

[Scrumhead]

The thing is, with Arundell confirmed as coming back, who are we really talking about other than Jack Willis and Joe Marchant?

We don’t need (or want) Farrell and as much as like Ludlam, he’d do well to make the squad.

Sinckler did look rejuvenated and I’d probably have Ribbans as 4th choice lock, but I’d be loathe to put the Premiership at risk for one or two players who’d probably (not definitely) make the starting XV and a couple of others who would make the 23.

[jngf]

The thing is, with Arundell confirmed as coming back, who are we really talking about other than Jack Willis and Joe Marchant?

We don’t need (or want) Farrell and as much as like Ludlam, he’d do well to make the squad.

Sinckler did look rejuvenated and I’d probably have Ribbans as 4th choice lock, but I’d be loathe to put the Premiership at risk for one or two players who’d probably (not definitely) make the starting XV and a couple of others who would make the 23.

I obviously have less affection for Premiership than most on this site ( Though would go and watch a Phoenix from the Flames Worcester Warriors side! ) but for me J Willis, S Simmonds and L Ludlam are all worth making an exception for. I’ve long banged the drum for Ludlam particularly and seems (like T Curry) highly competent at 6 or 7 and in Ludlam’s case a particularly good reader of the game with good pace and a reasonable albeit not ball wrecking carrying game, making him a good back up 8 too . Probably the most versitile backrow forward we have and genuinely able to play 6,7 and 8 to a fair and efficient standard at test level.

[FKAS]

The thing is, with Arundell confirmed as coming back, who are we really talking about other than Jack Willis and Joe Marchant?

We don’t need (or want) Farrell and as much as like Ludlam, he’d do well to make the squad.

Sinckler did look rejuvenated and I’d probably have Ribbans as 4th choice lock, but I’d be loathe to put the Premiership at risk for one or two players who’d probably (not definitely) make the starting XV and a couple of others who would make the 23.

I obviously have less affection for Premiership than most on this site ( Though would go and watch a Phoenix from the Flames Worcester Warriors side! ) but for me J Willis, S Simmonds and L Ludlam are all worth making an exception for. I’ve long banged the drum for Ludlam particularly and seems (like T Curry) highly competent at 6 or 7 and in Ludlam’s case a particularly good reader of the game with good pace and a reasonable albeit not ball wrecking carrying game, making him a good back up 8 too . Probably the most versitile backrow forward we have and genuinely able to play 6,7 and 8 to a fair and efficient standard at test level.

Decent players aren't worth thrashing the Prem for. None offer something we don't already have.

[Mikey Brown]

Weakened prem > teams fold > (potential) world class players lost > “let’s weaken the prem further!”

[jngf]

Weakened prem > teams fold > (potential) world class players lost > “let’s weaken the prem further!”

I’d do a Trump on the Prem - too many clubs, way over priced tickets, quality spread too thinly and too much like a pension plan for ex non-England eligible test players.