Lions Vs Reds

[bruce]

British and Irish Lions: Keenan, Freeman, Jones, Aki, Van der Merwe, Russell, Gibson-Park; Porter, Kelleher, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, Curry, Morgan, Conan

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Bealham, Ryan, Earl, Mitchell, F Smith, Ringrose

Looks a strong team.

[Big D]

If Marcus Smith isn't injured then it's a pretty clear statement where he is in the 10 pecking order not to get a start there.

Desperately unlucky for Williams. Think White may surprise a few.

[bruce]

Yeah shame for Williams, showing some decent form too. And then there was one.

[Puja]

Desperately unlucky for Williams. Think White may surprise a few.

Yeah, poor sod. It looked bad from the moment he came up from that dive holding his hamstring. White is clearly the correct choice, but I've never known what to make of him. Looked desperately pedestrian for Leicester and on his one appearance for England, but the second Scotland get their hands on him, he starts performing, a la Chris Harris. Hard to tell if he's actually a top player or if the Scotland setup is just very good at getting the best out of average players - guess we'll see if he thrives with the Lions.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Desperately unlucky for Williams. Think White may surprise a few.

Yeah, poor sod. It looked bad from the moment he came up from that dive holding his hamstring. White is clearly the correct choice, but I've never known what to make of him. Looked desperately pedestrian for Leicester and on his one appearance for England, but the second Scotland get their hands on him, he starts performing, a la Chris Harris. Hard to tell if he's actually a top player or if the Scotland setup is just very good at getting the best out of average players - guess we'll see if he thrives with the Lions.

Puja

Was considered a very promising talent coming through though at Leicester wasn’t he? Seemed like he just never found his feet at that level until moving to Irish. I was surprised at how he kicked on for Scotland though too, as I hadn’t really seen much of him.

Russell again at 10 for this game is interesting, which presumably leaves Marcus Smith earmarked for a Saturday start at 10? Or will that be Fin and Marcus has blown it already?

Stuart and Conan should offer a bit more of a solid foundation for the pack, surely.

[Mikey Brown]

Horrible for Tomos Williams. Hadn’t realised that injury from the dive for the try? It looked horribly awkward the way he chose to do that. Almost landed on his neck so maybe that’s a silver lining of sorts.

[Puja]

Desperately unlucky for Williams. Think White may surprise a few.

Yeah, poor sod. It looked bad from the moment he came up from that dive holding his hamstring. White is clearly the correct choice, but I've never known what to make of him. Looked desperately pedestrian for Leicester and on his one appearance for England, but the second Scotland get their hands on him, he starts performing, a la Chris Harris. Hard to tell if he's actually a top player or if the Scotland setup is just very good at getting the best out of average players - guess we'll see if he thrives with the Lions.

Puja

Was considered a very promising talent coming through though at Leicester wasn’t he? Seemed like he just never found his feet at that level until moving to Irish. I was surprised at how he kicked on for Scotland though too, as I hadn’t really seen much of him.

Russell again at 10 for this game is interesting, which presumably leaves Marcus Smith earmarked for a Saturday start at 10? Or will that be Fin and Marcus has blown it already?

Stuart and Conan should offer a bit more of a solid foundation for the pack, surely.

He was always talked up coming through the age groups as Future England Captain, was highly talked of with Leicester, and got promoted into the England squad for the non-cap game ahead of much better players on the basis of his potential. However every time he played, he was slow, ponderous, and indecisive - for England U20s, Leicester, and England. He had a decent turn of pace but rarely went for a gap, a decent pass but took so long to get the ball clear that it didn't matter, and was reputed an intelligent player but kept making poor decisions on the pitch. I remember being thoroughly disillusioned with him when he left Leicester and wasn't disappointed at all when he was released to join LIrish.

Entirely possible it was just Leicester at that time - he broke through in 2018-19 and stayed until 2021, which was peak "Geordan Murphy demonstrates the Peter Principle by means of taking Leicester into successive relegation battles," but he was definitely part of the problem on the pitch and didn't appear to be part of Borthwick's solution, as he barely played after Murphy was shuffled off and followed him out the door at the end of the season.

He then spent half a season as LIrish's bench 9, performing no better than okayish, was picked for the Scottish 6N side out of nowhere (to my derision, IIRC), came on against England to score a brilliant try and just immediately looked to the manner born an international player. Next season he was starting for Irish, starting and starring for Scotland (and scoring another bloody try against England!), and I finally got to see what all the fuss was about, but in the wrong shirts for both my damned teams!

I don't know what alchemy happened to him upon entering that Scottish camp, but he's looked a completely different player from the second he got his first cap. Whatever y'all did, it was magic.

Puja


ETA. Found an example (CW - Stuart Barnes commentary)



Game against the Barbarians which I opened at a random late point in the game as I remembered him coming on as a sub - England have just made a break (through a nice snipe by White, in fairness), but then the handbrake goes on - every breakdown has an exaggerated look for where his teammates are, he takes an extra second to address the ball and pause for thought, each pass is just slightly off and either floats in the air or makes the recipient reach for it. Then, when we're still going backwards after the 5th-6th phase, we go back for a penalty, Hammersley is screaming for a quick tap as the defence is dishevelled and White is walking, looking like it hadn't even crossed his mind.

Compare that to the player you guys unearthed and it's night and day. I don't even begrudge you the poach, cause we clearly weren't going to make that kind of player out of him. Deserving Lions tourist nowadays.

[Banquo]

Horrible for Tomos Williams. Hadn’t realised that injury from the dive for the try? It looked horribly awkward the way he chose to do that. Almost landed on his neck so maybe that’s a silver lining of sorts.

He was ankle tapped iirc

[BaldiePete]

British and Irish Lions: Keenan, Freeman, Jones, Aki, Van der Merwe, Russell, Gibson-Park; Porter, Kelleher, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, Curry, Morgan, Conan

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Bealham, Ryan, Earl, Mitchell, F Smith, Ringrose

Looks a strong team.

I think Russell has been picked to see how he gels with JGP at scrum half. Before the tour I’d have expected they would be the test pairing but with JGP injured and Russell playing for Bath this is the first time they’ll have a had a chance to play together.

Farrell is continuing his mix and match approach to the Irish and Scottish centres. He really doesn’t need to play either all Scots or all Irish combinations because he knows they play well together (and the Scots pair play well with Russell).

[Which Tyler]

If Marcus Smith isn't injured then it's a pretty clear statement where he is in the 10 pecking order not to get a start there.

Desperately unlucky for Williams. Think White may surprise a few.

With Williams out, I suspect it's desperation to get JGP and Russell on the pitch together.
Either way, I'm not happy about asking Finn to go again so soon, especially given the gruelling season he's had

[Banquo]

If Marcus Smith isn't injured then it's a pretty clear statement where he is in the 10 pecking order not to get a start there.

Desperately unlucky for Williams. Think White may surprise a few.

With Williams out, I suspect it's desperation to get JGP and Russell on the pitch together.
Either way, I'm not happy about asking Finn to go again so soon, especially given the gruelling season he's had

#justice4itoje

[Which Tyler]

#justice4itoje

Can't say I noticed him playing 80 minutes 2 days ago

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I don't understand. He just got a rest?

[Which Tyler]

Yeah I don't understand. He just got a rest?

It's not like no-one's commented on how over-played Maro has been, and granted, playing lock is physically harder than playing FH; but MI 28 matches, 2136 minutes isn't all that much more than FR on... erm... 32 matches and 2399 minutes.

The key point though, is that FR is being asked to start again, 4 days after his last match (as opposed to 12 days for Maro).

I definitely feel I'm missing something here.

[Banquo]

Yeah I don't understand. He just got a rest?

It's not like no-one's commented on how over-played Maro has been, and granted, playing lock is physically harder than playing FH; but MI 28 matches, 2136 minutes isn't all that much more than FR on... erm... 32 matches and 2399 minutes.

The key point though, is that FR is being asked to start again, 4 days after his last match (as opposed to 12 days for Maro).

I definitely feel I'm missing something here.

it was a shyte joke obviously. As you though, lock v 10. Well done on the research :lol

sorry fellas, I seem to have created some sort of bizarre furore. Its of course possible that both are due a bit (more) of a break.

(if you wanted to be serious, player welfare and lions tour seem a bit incompatible generally).

[jngf]

Itoje needs to find some form in this match. I actually expect him to rise to the occasion but he really does need a big game to prove he actually merits a test start at lock over Chessum or McCarthy.

[Spiffy]

Itoje needs to find some form in this match. I actually expect him to rise to the occasion but he really does need a big game to prove he actually merits a test start at lock over Chessum or McCarthy.

I think the last Lions touring captain who was not selected for the test team was Scotland's Mike Campbell-Lamerton in 1966. He dropped himself from two of the the four tests against NZ, for poor form and for the good of the team.

[Puja]

Itoje needs to find some form in this match. I actually expect him to rise to the occasion but he really does need a big game to prove he actually merits a test start at lock over Chessum or McCarthy.

An entire season of being the best lock in the northern hemisphere, but he now "really needs a big game to prove he actually merits a test start" because of one anonymous game in a scratch warm-up game. Incredible.

Puja

[jngf]

Itoje needs to find some form in this match. I actually expect him to rise to the occasion but he really does need a big game to prove he actually merits a test start at lock over Chessum or McCarthy.

An entire season of being the best lock in the northern hemisphere, but he now "really needs a big game to prove he actually merits a test start" because of one anonymous game in a scratch warm-up game. Incredible.

Puja

Why should he be judged by different standards to any other player? - his form was lousy in that Argentina test so I feel it’s a fair point ( not just one made by me either ) Like I said I actually think he will rise to the occasion and put in a class performance but he really needs too given the bar set by some of the other locks in the tour squad.

[Cameo]

Itoje needs to find some form in this match. I actually expect him to rise to the occasion but he really does need a big game to prove he actually merits a test start at lock over Chessum or McCarthy.

An entire season of being the best lock in the northern hemisphere, but he now "really needs a big game to prove he actually merits a test start" because of one anonymous game in a scratch warm-up game. Incredible.

Puja

Why should he be judged by different standards to any other player? - his form was lousy in that Argentina test so I feel it’s a fair point ( not just one made by me either ) Like I said I actually think he will rise to the occasion and put in a class performance but he really needs too given the bar set by some of the other locks in the tour squad.

Because selection isn't just about selecting the 15 players who played the best in their most recent match. It is about selecting who you think is likely to perform best in the match to come so you need to consider a mixture of recent form and performances over time.

So, yes, if he has a few stinkers, he may not get picked, but I don't think they will read much into one or two quiet performances given his years of quality. Same goes for one or two good performances elsewhere if the opposition is average, unless selection is tight already (which it probably is in several positions) or players show something the coaches are really looking for.

[Sandydragon]

If Marcus Smith isn't injured then it's a pretty clear statement where he is in the 10 pecking order not to get a start there.

Desperately unlucky for Williams. Think White may surprise a few.

Yeah, gutted for him and at 30 this was probably his final chance (never say never obviously but the odds must surely lengthen on his contribution to the next tour).

White would have been my next in line so no arguments there.

[Sandydragon]

British and Irish Lions: Keenan, Freeman, Jones, Aki, Van der Merwe, Russell, Gibson-Park; Porter, Kelleher, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, Curry, Morgan, Conan

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Bealham, Ryan, Earl, Mitchell, F Smith, Ringrose

Looks a strong team.

I like the back row balance in this one. It looks like a decent unit and I hope they can perform as a collective.

[Puja]

Itoje needs to find some form in this match. I actually expect him to rise to the occasion but he really does need a big game to prove he actually merits a test start at lock over Chessum or McCarthy.

An entire season of being the best lock in the northern hemisphere, but he now "really needs a big game to prove he actually merits a test start" because of one anonymous game in a scratch warm-up game. Incredible.

Puja

Why should he be judged by different standards to any other player? - his form was lousy in that Argentina test so I feel it’s a fair point ( not just one made by me either ) Like I said I actually think he will rise to the occasion and put in a class performance but he really needs too given the bar set by some of the other locks in the tour squad.

I'm... not suggesting that he should? I'm laughing at the recency bias of Itoje playing one average game against a settled test side, and McCarthy having one good game against the weakest Aus Super Rugby side and suddenly all Itoje's previous form is out of the window and he "needs a big game".

Puja

[Banquo]

Itoje needs to find some form in this match. I actually expect him to rise to the occasion but he really does need a big game to prove he actually merits a test start at lock over Chessum or McCarthy.

An entire season of being the best lock in the northern hemisphere, but he now "really needs a big game to prove he actually merits a test start" because of one anonymous game in a scratch warm-up game. Incredible.

Puja

his form was lousy in that Argentina test

Really? Specifically what?

[Mikey Brown]

Only being 6’5” probably.