RugbyRebels

Yesterday an American shot up a gay night club in Floria, killing 50 people and wounding more than 50 more. In America there is more than one mass shooting per day on average, though yesterday's was the worst on record. Who is to blame for this tragedy? American lawmakers and gun lobbyists perhaps? How about the attacker himself? No, no, no. Perish the thought. It was ISIS - 'Islamic terrorists,' as Americans are taught to think of them. Nothing to do with those gun laws at all. Nothing to do with the insanity of the 'American way.' So what to do? Obviously we don't change the gun laws or criticize the lawmakers and gun lobbyists. ISIS did it, so the solution must be to send more troops to the Middle East and destroy a few more countries, right? It's thanks to ISIS that the occupation of Iraq, now in its 14th year, is continuing, and it's thanks to ISIS that American troops are now in Syria - uninvited. Wow, ISIS is actually proving to be very convenient for the US neocons. You'd almost thinking they were working for them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-flori ... =applenews

Excellent post. There have been a few female mass murderers too, btw. San Bernardino last year, for example (carried out by a couple) - also bizarrely linked to 'Islamic terrorism' because they had Pakistani roots . . .

Blaming an Islamic extremist for a massacre is useful when hiding the fact that many of these events have no religious motivation. I thought after the massacres in schools the penny might finally drop, but it seems the gun lobby is stronger than ever. Even the cherished argument of if you arm security guards and citizens they can fight back, seems to have been undermined in this instance as there is one report of security staff returning fire, yet the gun man still took a load of hostages and it still took a SWAT team with heavy equipment to remove the threat.

Gun laws in France did nothing to prevent the outrages there, but then one needs to consider the porous border and availability of automatic weapons from Eastern Europe. The US doesn't have that problem and it seems crazy that you can buy automatic weapons so easily in most states. It just seems crazy that this conversations keeps on coming around.

This guy was known by the Feds for years, had a documented history of mental illness and domestic abuse convictions, yet he manages to buy a fully automatic assault rifle with no hassle.


If that''s not a systematic failure of infrastructure, I don't know what is.

morepork wrote:This guy was known by the Feds for years, had a documented history of mental illness and domestic abuse convictions, yet he manages to buy a fully automatic assault rifle with no hassle.


If that''s not a systematic failure of infrastructure, I don't know what is.

I know that this is pedantic to the point of irrelevance given the circumstances, but it is not possible to buy a fully automatic assault rifle in the US without a very special license, under Federal law. It would have been a semi-automatic.

rowan wrote:Yesterday an American shot up a gay night club in Floria, killing 50 people and wounding more than 50 more. In America there is more than one mass shooting per day on average, though yesterday's was the worst on record. Who is to blame for this tragedy? American lawmakers and gun lobbyists perhaps? How about the attacker himself? No, no, no. Perish the thought. It was ISIS - 'Islamic terrorists,' as Americans are taught to think of them. Nothing to do with those gun laws at all. Nothing to do with the insanity of the 'American way.' So what to do? Obviously we don't change the gun laws or criticize the lawmakers and gun lobbyists. ISIS did it, so the solution must be to send more troops to the Middle East and destroy a few more countries, right? It's thanks to ISIS that the occupation of Iraq, now in its 14th year, is continuing, and it's thanks to ISIS that American troops are now in Syria - uninvited. Wow, ISIS is actually proving to be very convenient for the US neocons. You'd almost thinking they were working for them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-flori ... =applenews

Aaaaaand there it is. Even when ISIS put their hands up to claim responsibility, its still the fault of "neocons" in America.

I agree with you about the insanity of american gun laws etc, but jesus fecin wept could you given the rest of it a fwcin rest, just this once?

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Stones of granite wrote:

morepork wrote:This guy was known by the Feds for years, had a documented history of mental illness and domestic abuse convictions, yet he manages to buy a fully automatic assault rifle with no hassle.


If that''s not a systematic failure of infrastructure, I don't know what is.

I know that this is pedantic to the point of irrelevance given the circumstances, but it is not possible to buy a fully automatic assault rifle in the US without a very special license, under Federal law. It would have been a semi-automatic.

Fair enough. In Florida, you can buy as many M16s as you like and they don't have to be registered. Brilliant.

morepork wrote:

Stones of granite wrote:

morepork wrote:This guy was known by the Feds for years, had a documented history of mental illness and domestic abuse convictions, yet he manages to buy a fully automatic assault rifle with no hassle.


If that''s not a systematic failure of infrastructure, I don't know what is.

I know that this is pedantic to the point of irrelevance given the circumstances, but it is not possible to buy a fully automatic assault rifle in the US without a very special license, under Federal law. It would have been a semi-automatic.

Fair enough. In Florida, you can buy as many M16s as you like and they don't have to be registered. Brilliant.

And no limits on how much ammo you can buy. It's not rational.

Donny osmond wrote:

rowan wrote:Yesterday an American shot up a gay night club in Floria, killing 50 people and wounding more than 50 more. In America there is more than one mass shooting per day on average, though yesterday's was the worst on record. Who is to blame for this tragedy? American lawmakers and gun lobbyists perhaps? How about the attacker himself? No, no, no. Perish the thought. It was ISIS - 'Islamic terrorists,' as Americans are taught to think of them. Nothing to do with those gun laws at all. Nothing to do with the insanity of the 'American way.' So what to do? Obviously we don't change the gun laws or criticize the lawmakers and gun lobbyists. ISIS did it, so the solution must be to send more troops to the Middle East and destroy a few more countries, right? It's thanks to ISIS that the occupation of Iraq, now in its 14th year, is continuing, and it's thanks to ISIS that American troops are now in Syria - uninvited. Wow, ISIS is actually proving to be very convenient for the US neocons. You'd almost thinking they were working for them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-flori ... =applenews

Aaaaaand there it is. Even when ISIS put their hands up to claim responsibility, its still the fault of "neocons" in America.

I agree with you about the insanity of american gun laws etc, but jesus fecin wept could you given the rest of it a fwcin rest, just this once?

Sent from my XT1052 using Tapatalk

Personally I doubt the guy anything to do with ISIS. He's a wife beating, body building gay hater. In other words, full blown homophobic. He couldn't live with his own sexuality, so went on a rampage.

Fausty on steroids if you like.

J Dory wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

rowan wrote:Yesterday an American shot up a gay night club in Floria, killing 50 people and wounding more than 50 more. In America there is more than one mass shooting per day on average, though yesterday's was the worst on record. Who is to blame for this tragedy? American lawmakers and gun lobbyists perhaps? How about the attacker himself? No, no, no. Perish the thought. It was ISIS - 'Islamic terrorists,' as Americans are taught to think of them. Nothing to do with those gun laws at all. Nothing to do with the insanity of the 'American way.' So what to do? Obviously we don't change the gun laws or criticize the lawmakers and gun lobbyists. ISIS did it, so the solution must be to send more troops to the Middle East and destroy a few more countries, right? It's thanks to ISIS that the occupation of Iraq, now in its 14th year, is continuing, and it's thanks to ISIS that American troops are now in Syria - uninvited. Wow, ISIS is actually proving to be very convenient for the US neocons. You'd almost thinking they were working for them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-flori ... =applenews

Aaaaaand there it is. Even when ISIS put their hands up to claim responsibility, its still the fault of "neocons" in America.

I agree with you about the insanity of american gun laws etc, but jesus fecin wept could you given the rest of it a fwcin rest, just this once?

Sent from my XT1052 using Tapatalk

Personally I doubt the guy anything to do with ISIS. He's a wife beating, body building gay hater. In other words, full blown homophobic. He couldn't live with his own sexuality, so went on a rampage.

Fausty on steroids if you like.

I think he was mentally prepared to do this well before any ISIS connection.

Stones of granite wrote:

morepork wrote:

Stones of granite wrote:
I know that this is pedantic to the point of irrelevance given the circumstances, but it is not possible to buy a fully automatic assault rifle in the US without a very special license, under Federal law. It would have been a semi-automatic.

Fair enough. In Florida, you can buy as many M16s as you like and they don't have to be registered. Brilliant.

And no limits on how much ammo you can buy. It's not rational.

It doesn't have to be rational, it's their right.

For many Americans, it's irrational to consider gun control and the possibility of living without an assault rifle under the bed.

The only rational answer seems to be to arm everyone to the teeth. That'll stop these things from happening.

Sandydragon wrote:

J Dory wrote:

Donny osmond wrote: Aaaaaand there it is. Even when ISIS put their hands up to claim responsibility, its still the fault of "neocons" in America.

I agree with you about the insanity of american gun laws etc, but jesus fecin wept could you given the rest of it a fwcin rest, just this once?

Sent from my XT1052 using Tapatalk

Personally I doubt the guy anything to do with ISIS. He's a wife beating, body building gay hater. In other words, full blown homophobic. He couldn't live with his own sexuality, so went on a rampage.

Fausty on steroids if you like.

I think he was mentally prepared to do this well before any ISIS connection.

You'd have to be pretty naive to buy into the ISIS claims. They were created by the US and have effectively served America's geo-political needs extremely well. These claims have about as much credibility as the WOMD accusations and the infamous testimony of Nayirah...

Created as in the US caused the conditions that allowed them to exist (which is only partially correct) or created as I the US actually formed them (which is nonsense).


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What?

Donny osmond wrote:

rowan wrote:Yesterday an American shot up a gay night club in Floria, killing 50 people and wounding more than 50 more. In America there is more than one mass shooting per day on average, though yesterday's was the worst on record. Who is to blame for this tragedy? American lawmakers and gun lobbyists perhaps? How about the attacker himself? No, no, no. Perish the thought. It was ISIS - 'Islamic terrorists,' as Americans are taught to think of them. Nothing to do with those gun laws at all. Nothing to do with the insanity of the 'American way.' So what to do? Obviously we don't change the gun laws or criticize the lawmakers and gun lobbyists. ISIS did it, so the solution must be to send more troops to the Middle East and destroy a few more countries, right? It's thanks to ISIS that the occupation of Iraq, now in its 14th year, is continuing, and it's thanks to ISIS that American troops are now in Syria - uninvited. Wow, ISIS is actually proving to be very convenient for the US neocons. You'd almost thinking they were working for them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-flori ... =applenews

Aaaaaand there it is. Even when ISIS put their hands up to claim responsibility, its still the fault of "neocons" in America.

I agree with you about the insanity of american gun laws etc, but jesus fecin wept could you given the rest of it a fwcin rest, just this once?

Sent from my XT1052 using Tapatalk

The problem is with you. Not other posters, dipshit.

Your problem is that you're utterly stupid and you have no balls.

You're running around squealing about people who don't believe the telly box like you do. And whining about them using correct language (because you're too stupid to understand it).

What an utterly pathetic excuse you are for a man.

If you want an echo chamber, ask Hammy for a Eunuch's Room.

'ISIS' was directly created, funded, trained and armed by the US. It was no accident or unintended consequence.

J Dory wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

rowan wrote:Yesterday an American shot up a gay night club in Floria, killing 50 people and wounding more than 50 more. In America there is more than one mass shooting per day on average, though yesterday's was the worst on record. Who is to blame for this tragedy? American lawmakers and gun lobbyists perhaps? How about the attacker himself? No, no, no. Perish the thought. It was ISIS - 'Islamic terrorists,' as Americans are taught to think of them. Nothing to do with those gun laws at all. Nothing to do with the insanity of the 'American way.' So what to do? Obviously we don't change the gun laws or criticize the lawmakers and gun lobbyists. ISIS did it, so the solution must be to send more troops to the Middle East and destroy a few more countries, right? It's thanks to ISIS that the occupation of Iraq, now in its 14th year, is continuing, and it's thanks to ISIS that American troops are now in Syria - uninvited. Wow, ISIS is actually proving to be very convenient for the US neocons. You'd almost thinking they were working for them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-flori ... =applenews

Aaaaaand there it is. Even when ISIS put their hands up to claim responsibility, its still the fault of "neocons" in America.

I agree with you about the insanity of american gun laws etc, but jesus fecin wept could you given the rest of it a fwcin rest, just this once?

Sent from my XT1052 using Tapatalk

Personally I doubt the guy anything to do with ISIS. He's a wife beating, body building gay hater. In other words, full blown homophobic. He couldn't live with his own sexuality, so went on a rampage.
Fausty on steroids if you like.

There we have it. Apparently he had been to club drinking at least a dozen times prior to shooting it up. Closet gay who was caught between what was "manly" and Allah would approve of, and the stirrings in his pants.

Sandydragon wrote:Created as in the US caused the conditions that allowed them to exist (which is only partially correct) or created as I the US actually formed them (which is nonsense).


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There are varying opinions on the above, but very few deny US culpability entirely. Aside from creating the conditions, they indirectly (perhaps) armed them by providing weapons to anti-Assad rebels (terrorists by standard definitions applied to America's enemies), which somehow, amazingly, ended up in ISIS hands - and continued to do so even when they became aware of this. It appears ISIS are also in possession of US vehicles 'forgotten in the desert.' There is also a school of thought that ISIS is actually controlled by NATO members, (not necessarily the US, by some accounts), and possibly even a CIA covert op (by others). According to former CIA officer John Stockwell the organization has contributed to the deaths of approximately 8 million people with its outright wars and covert operations, mostly in the Third World, and this statement was made some years ago. The toll has probably surpassed 10 million by now, given what's been going on in Libya, Syria, Yemen, Honduras & the Ukraine. So anything's possible.

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Created as in the US caused the conditions that allowed them to exist (which is only partially correct) or created as I the US actually formed them (which is nonsense).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are varying opinions on the above, but very few deny US culpability entirely. Aside from creating the conditions, they indirectly (perhaps) armed them by providing weapons to anti-Assad rebels (terrorists by standard definitions applied to America's enemies), which somehow, amazingly, ended up in ISIS hands - and continued to do so even when they became aware of this. It appears ISIS are also in possession of US vehicles 'forgotten in the desert.' There is also a school of thought that ISIS is actually controlled by NATO members, (not necessarily the US, by some accounts), and possibly even a CIA covert op (by others). According to former CIA officer John Stockwell the organization has contributed to the deaths of approximately 8 million people with its outright wars and covert operations, mostly in the Third World, and this statement was made some years ago. The toll has probably surpassed 10 million by now, given what's been going on in Libya, Syria, Yemen, Honduras & the Ukraine. So anything's possible.

The fall of Saddam helped set the conditions, no argument there (or to be more accurate the failure of the post Saddam governments to govern their properly in a reasonable manner). Arming the rebels is a reasonable point if you assume that the US provided weapons to the more extreme elements. That was never the plan, although its possible that weapon came into their hands via third parties, equally they have been armed by Gulf States who are less picky or have taken their weaponry off government troops who have run away. US vehicles were provided to the Iraqi army which retreated as an incredible rate of knots when ISIS attacked.

But equally the brutality of the Assad regime and the actions of other regional players have contributed to ISIS existence as well.

Frankly there is no evidence to suggest that the Pentagon or CIA are controlling ISIS.

bruce wrote:

J Dory wrote:

Donny osmond wrote: Aaaaaand there it is. Even when ISIS put their hands up to claim responsibility, its still the fault of "neocons" in America.

I agree with you about the insanity of american gun laws etc, but jesus fecin wept could you given the rest of it a fwcin rest, just this once?

Sent from my XT1052 using Tapatalk

Personally I doubt the guy anything to do with ISIS. He's a wife beating, body building gay hater. In other words, full blown homophobic. He couldn't live with his own sexuality, so went on a rampage.
Fausty on steroids if you like.

There we have it. Apparently he had been to club drinking at least a dozen times prior to shooting it up. Closet gay who was caught between what was "manly" and Allah would approve of, and the stirrings in his pants.

There was an ex-Islamic extremist who mentioned that tensions with homosexuality played a huge part in many who followed that way of life. I recall listening to him speak on the radio months ago. Not sure how much can be laid to rest with that excuse mind.

But equally the brutality of the Assad regime and the actions of other regional players have contributed to ISIS existence as well.

On this occasion Assad is only defending his country as any leader would, as any leader has the right to do, and in fact as any leader has an obligation to do. That's not to say he hasn't done nasty things in the past, but probably nothing that compares with the crimes of America's allies in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, Israel & elsewhere, and certainly not to its former buddies in Latin America during the Dirty War, Indonesia during the communist & Timorese genocides, and South Africa during the Apartheid era. & then there are the various genocidal Afrikan leaders they have supported, such as the recently convicted Hissene Habre of Chad, and let's not even get started on the crimes of America and various NATO members themselves.

Anyway, to bring this conversation back to the core topic, I am pretty sure ISIS does not claim international acts of terrorism, and that these claims are in fact coming from Western governments and compliant media. How very convenient for them. The latest example of the insanity of America's gun laws, namely the killing of 50 homosexuals by an homophobic American male, has now been twisted into an attack on American soil by a foreign (Islamic, in the eyes of Americans) terrorist organization. That's about as sick as it gets. It's like blaming the 2011 Norway Massacre on Christians and their ideology.

rowan wrote:Anyway, to bring this conversation back to the core topic, I am pretty sure ISIS does not claim international acts of terrorism, and that these claims are in fact coming from Western governments and compliant media. How very convenient for them. The latest example of the insanity of America's gun laws, namely the killing of 50 homosexuals by an homophobic American male, has now been twisted into an attack on American soil by a foreign (Islamic, in the eyes of Americans) terrorist organization. That's about as sick as it gets. It's like blaming the 2011 Norway Massacre on Christians and their ideology.

Was the claim of responsibility from ISIS for the killing of a French Police Commander and his wife also invented by Western governments and compliant media? For what reason?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... eath-paris

Islamic State appeared to claim the attack through its news agency. The Site Intelligence Group, a US-based monitor, cited the Isis-linked Amaq News Agency as saying on its Telegram channels shortly afer the attack: “Islamic State fighter kills deputy chief of the police station in the city of Les Mureaux and his wife with blade weapons near Paris.”

Was the claim of responsibility from ISIS for the killing of a French Police Commander and his wife also invented by Western governments and compliant media? For what reason?


IMHO, most likely. For what reason? As mentioned, to deflect attention from the real issues. In this case it appears to be the work of individuals radicalized by NATO wars in the Middle East, which have killed millions, wounded, bereaved, disenfranchises and otherwise traumatized millions of others, and created a refugee tidal wave directly into the heart of Europe. In Omar Mateen's case, to deflect attention from America's ludicrous gun laws - as well as homophobia.

So there’s just one thing about his claim to be acting on behalf of ISIL (with whom he appears never to have had any contact): puritanical Muslim fundamentalists of the ISIL sort don’t behave that way. Unbalanced, disturbed young Christian Americans who want to act out power fantasies that end in murder-suicide tend to claim a KKK, neo-Nazi, Christian fundamentalist or other white-nationalist identity in a desperate bid to make their loser lives and loser behavior seem cosmically important. And, Jewish young men with mass murder on their minds tend to do so in the name of some flavor of radical Zionism (Jewish nationalism, which makes Judaism a national identity rather than a private religious one). Muslim American young men with similar power fantasies and violent impulses inflate their egos with reference to al-Qaeda, ISIL, whatever the far right fringe Muslim boogey man of the day is.
http://www.juancole.com/2016/06/someone ... ihadi.html