RugbyRebels

Horrific story out of India here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -debt.html

Isn't it about time the world's largest democracy was held to account for this blatantly racist system of hierarchy? Apparently it goes back thousands of years, possibly back to the Aryan invasions when, supposedly, white folks swarmed down from the Caucasus region and occupied much of southern Asia, possibly enslaving the native Australoid peoples, imposing their language and religion on them and obviously hybridizing with them along the way. This, incidentally, is believed to have occurred after the demise of the Harappan Civilization during a period of dramatic climate change and extensive migrations.

Im not going to argue against you on this one. I've come across the caste system a couple of times and I don't think it has a place in a modern democracy. That said, I also don't see it as my place to tell other cultures they need to change. This is something the Indians need to work out for themselves.

Not sure I agree with your last point, though it is endemic and not resultant from colonization of the past few centuries, as is the case in other parts of the world where international pressure plays a vital role in fighting institutionalized racism.

Oh fuck no. None of our business, unless you want to fuel yet more "western interference" bullshittery threads.

EiE makes my point. Our reputation is low enough from years of trying to promote our values. I have no problem with trying to educate as a side activity, but not putting pressure on a country to change its culture. Preaching to the world that our way is better is a losing activity.

Disagree. It's not about asking them to change their clothing or religion or language or anything. It's about putting pressure on them to respect human rights, and I think the international community has an obligation to this in all circumstances. Obviously Apartheid South Africa and the ongoing problems in the US - just as two examples off the top of my head - are entirely different scenarios, but I think it goes without saying that the international community had/has a role there too, and indeed it was precisely this which helped end the former outrage. So while the caste system me be regarded as a cultural issue endemic to the sub-continent, when it involves people being treated like dogs and even murdered, and having no opportunity to progress in society, then I don't think the global community can simply turn its back on this. It certainly hasn't turned its back on female genital mutilation in Africa, has it, nor human rights issues in China or elsewhere, and neither should it.

Preaching to the world that our way is better is a losing activity.

That comment seems to imply you think I'm referring to Europe, or the West. I'm not. I'm referring to the international community as a whole.

Unless there has been some sort of a cosmic shift that I wasn't aware of, I'm fairly sure, Europe and by extension the west are in the international community.

Besides nearly every nation in this mythical beast that is the "international community" could do with getting its own house in order before it starts having a collective tilt at other nations.

Don't confuse my negativity on this for endorsement of it. You are 100% correct, it's fucking appalling. However, any kind of international attempt to affect it will be viewed as interference. Particularly in this day and age where it is abundantly clear that large influential members of the international community have no interest in altruistic attempts to make the world a better place. Even if they did, nobody would buy it.

India is one fucked up country where primitive beliefs and systems seem to dictate many things. Beyond the caste system, astrology is massively popular in India. Many believe that the exact time and place you were born and the position of the planets at the time have a bearing on your personality, career, love life, health etc. This is of course bollocks but some wealthy families in India use astrology to choose dates for weddings, apply for jobs and make mundane decisions in their lives yet seem completely oblivious that their fortunes in life are related to their wealth and social standing.

Amazingly, some westerners who believe in astrology are happy to endorse the belief system on the basis that it is popular in the cultural behemoth that is India. It must be good if it has been used for thousands of years...in India of all places!

Slightly off topic there....

WaspInWales wrote:India is one fucked up country where primitive beliefs and systems seem to dictate many things. Beyond the caste system, astrology is massively popular in India. Many believe that the exact time and place you were born and the position of the planets at the time have a bearing on your personality, career, love life, health etc. This is of course bollocks but some wealthy families in India use astrology to choose dates for weddings, apply for jobs and make mundane decisions in their lives yet seem completely oblivious that their fortunes in life are related to their wealth and social standing.

Amazingly, some westerners who believe in astrology are happy to endorse the belief system on the basis that it is popular in the cultural behemoth that is India. It must be good if it has been used for thousands of years...in India of all places!

Slightly off topic there....

This is different to Christianity, how?

jared_7 wrote:

WaspInWales wrote:India is one fucked up country where primitive beliefs and systems seem to dictate many things. Beyond the caste system, astrology is massively popular in India. Many believe that the exact time and place you were born and the position of the planets at the time have a bearing on your personality, career, love life, health etc. This is of course bollocks but some wealthy families in India use astrology to choose dates for weddings, apply for jobs and make mundane decisions in their lives yet seem completely oblivious that their fortunes in life are related to their wealth and social standing.

Amazingly, some westerners who believe in astrology are happy to endorse the belief system on the basis that it is popular in the cultural behemoth that is India. It must be good if it has been used for thousands of years...in India of all places!

Slightly off topic there....

This is different to Christianity, how?

I wasn't aware I was referencing any differences or similarities with Christianity, but are you suggesting astrology and Christianity are the same thing?

WaspInWales wrote:

jared_7 wrote:

WaspInWales wrote:India is one fucked up country where primitive beliefs and systems seem to dictate many things. Beyond the caste system, astrology is massively popular in India. Many believe that the exact time and place you were born and the position of the planets at the time have a bearing on your personality, career, love life, health etc. This is of course bollocks but some wealthy families in India use astrology to choose dates for weddings, apply for jobs and make mundane decisions in their lives yet seem completely oblivious that their fortunes in life are related to their wealth and social standing.

Amazingly, some westerners who believe in astrology are happy to endorse the belief system on the basis that it is popular in the cultural behemoth that is India. It must be good if it has been used for thousands of years...in India of all places!

Slightly off topic there....

This is different to Christianity, how?

I wasn't aware I was referencing any differences or similarities with Christianity, but are you suggesting astrology and Christianity are the same thing?

I'm suggesting both are hocus pocus with no scientific merit or foundation. They use astrology to justify certain practices, just like Muslim countries use Islam and many western countries use Christianity, purely because it has been used for thousands of years.

I don't see how any is any more "primitive" than the other. Within the context of this discussion, where there is a tone of "teaching" a less developed country they "right" way to do things, I don't think anyone has a leg to stand on when it comes to this area. Although I know you are not suggesting that as you mentioned it was off topic.

jared_7 wrote:I'm suggesting both are hocus pocus with no scientific merit or foundation. They use astrology to justify certain practices, just like Muslim countries use Islam and many western countries use Christianity, purely because it has been used for thousands of years.

I don't see how any is any more "primitive" than the other. Within the context of this discussion, where there is a tone of "teaching" a less developed country they "right" way to do things, I don't think anyone has a leg to stand on when it comes to this area. Although I know you are not suggesting that as you mentioned it was off topic.

Aye, that's pretty much my view on all religions and belief systems. Unfortunately, there are many people happy to lap it up.

India is in part messed up, but also in many ways an awesome place. And if there's no way you could really say one thing of the UK, not everyone even likes tea, then there's certainly no way you could make one sweeping statement for a country as vast as India.

The caste system is something a lot of people know they need to move past, not everyone mind, but a lot of the values which inform it are ingrained in their society, and so even for those who know they need to move beyond it then it's going to take time, a lot of time, sadly and most likely generations. It's not helpful to think of them as having primitive belief systems, or at least they're no more primitive than many of the values which inform our judeo-christian societies in the west. What does strike me having spent a little time there, and having worked with a lot of Indians who've come over to work here, is how much more a fatalistic view they take on life, that thinking isn't remotely as present in the west.

The international community includes the West, yes, but the international community does not only include the West. Let's get that straight. & the international community does have an obligation to pressure countries where human rights violations are evident. That's not even controversial.

I've already mentioned the FGM issue in Africa, as just one similar example. They say it's culture. We consider it barbaric. You can call the Caste system culture. Others would regard is as a form of classism defined mostly by race but also by religion (in the case of the Brahmins).

In fact, even as we speak, Turkey is at loggerheads with certain European leaders over its decision to make sexual intercourse with minors (under 15) legal in certain cases. They say it's a cultural issue. The Europeans don't seem to agree.

Absolutely nothing to get straight. Can we assume we are both intelligent enough to already know that? Besides, I'm not after a lesson on semantics from a cat that routinely uses the word evil to describe past and current nation states.

So what would you suggest the international community does to apply pressure? A strongly worded letter? Sanctions? Sanctions are great at helping kill poor people and creating civil unrest.

Purely my opinion, but I'd say the best way to get anything done about it is keep world government organisations the fuck away from it.

rowan wrote:The international community includes the West, yes, but the international community does not only include the West. Let's get that straight. & the international community does have an obligation to pressure countries where human rights violations are evident. That's not even controversial.

I've already mentioned the FGM issue in Africa, as just one similar example. They say it's culture. We consider it barbaric. You can call the Caste system culture. Others would regard is as a form of classism defined mostly by race but also by religion (in the case of the Brahmins).

In fact, even as we speak, Turkey is at loggerheads with certain European leaders over its decision to make sexual intercourse with minors (under 15) legal in certain cases. They say it's a cultural issue. The Europeans don't seem to agree.

Yeah, but wanting to stick your dick in children and slashing up lady parts is fucked up, cultural or not. Let's put it this way - if some grown-ass man comes into my tutor group and points at one of the kids there in Y9 or 10 and says "I want that one," I'm castrating the son of a bitch then and there. And working with adolescents every day, for a combined 9 months of the year, I can tell you, they are completely unprepared for the potential consequences of that sort of thing.

You might want to read Yukichi Fukuzawa's An Outline of a Theory of Civilisation, which is from the perspective of a scholar who recognises that culturally, his nation has fallen behind under the guise of "culture," and that a lot of the cultural practices were bullshit mumbojumbo from the get-go.

So what would you suggest the international community does to apply pressure? A strongly worded letter? Sanctions? Sanctions are great at helping kill poor people and creating civil unrest.


Good question. No, we have seen the genocidal effects of sanctions in Iraq, while they also appear to be contributing to borderline starvation on a widespread scale in Venezuela at present. I also agree that actual governments should stay out of it. For one thing, they'll all have their own skeletons in the closet. But I think it is an issue that could be raised at the UN in the appropriate manner, and t'would certainly be a good idea to promote more awareness of the issue.

If anyone on here is British and criticising India's caste system, you might want to worry about fixing your own class system before chucking any more stones inside your glasshouse there.

I know they are not identical, but they sit on the same spectrum. And if (as I expect you to claim) the British class system is less pervasive or important, then surely getting rid of it would be relatively easy and give you some sort of authority when lecturing India on how to fix 1000s of years of history.

& the British ought to be held accountable for an awful lot more than that. But they won't be, of course.

Lizard wrote:If anyone on here is British and criticising India's caste system, you might want to worry about fixing your own class system before chucking any more stones inside your glasshouse there.

I know they are not identical, but they sit on the same spectrum. And if (as I expect you to claim) the British class system is less pervasive or important, then surely getting rid of it would be relatively easy and give you some sort of authority when lecturing India on how to fix 1000s of years of history.

Nah mate, I'm not defined by my nationality. I'll criticise what I don't like.

cashead wrote:

rowan wrote:The international community includes the West, yes, but the international community does not only include the West. Let's get that straight. & the international community does have an obligation to pressure countries where human rights violations are evident. That's not even controversial.

I've already mentioned the FGM issue in Africa, as just one similar example. They say it's culture. We consider it barbaric. You can call the Caste system culture. Others would regard is as a form of classism defined mostly by race but also by religion (in the case of the Brahmins).

In fact, even as we speak, Turkey is at loggerheads with certain European leaders over its decision to make sexual intercourse with minors (under 15) legal in certain cases. They say it's a cultural issue. The Europeans don't seem to agree.

Yeah, but wanting to stick your dick in children and slashing up lady parts is fucked up, cultural or not. Let's put it this way - if some grown-ass man comes into my tutor group and points at one of the kids there in Y9 or 10 and says "I want that one," I'm castrating the son of a bitch then and there. And working with adolescents every day, for a combined 9 months of the year, I can tell you, they are completely unprepared for the potential consequences of that sort of thing.

You might want to read Yukichi Fukuzawa's An Outline of a Theory of Civilisation, which is from the perspective of a scholar who recognises that culturally, his nation has fallen behind under the guise of "culture," and that a lot of the cultural practices were bullshit mumbojumbo from the get-go.

This is gold. Thank you.

Lizard wrote:If anyone on here is British and criticising India's caste system, you might want to worry about fixing your own class system before chucking any more stones inside your glasshouse there.

I know they are not identical, but they sit on the same spectrum. And if (as I expect you to claim) the British class system is less pervasive or important, then surely getting rid of it would be relatively easy and give you some sort of authority when lecturing India on how to fix 1000s of years of history.

There is truth in this, although most countries have some kind of issues to sort out in this regard.

As India becomes more cosmopolitan and open up with trade still more, old practices will become obsolete. Outsiders preaching will just entrench views.

And if anyone is wondering how seriously Fukuzawa's views in the Meiji-era were taken, keep in mind that he's the guy on the ¥10000 note.

Edinburgh in Exile wrote:

Lizard wrote:If anyone on here is British and criticising India's caste system, you might want to worry about fixing your own class system before chucking any more stones inside your glasshouse there.

I know they are not identical, but they sit on the same spectrum. And if (as I expect you to claim) the British class system is less pervasive or important, then surely getting rid of it would be relatively easy and give you some sort of authority when lecturing India on how to fix 1000s of years of history.

Nah mate, I'm not defined by my nationality. I'll criticise what I don't like.

My view exactly. Borders are only superficial and some of us aren't even sure what our country is supposed to be. In my particular case there is where I was born, where I grew up and where my ancestors were from. All are different, and my ancestors weren't all from the same country anyway. Furthermore, as a free-thinking individual I find myself at odds in many respects with the outlook and th ideology of the society I grew up in (and received the bulk of my education in). I'm not defensive of New Zealand in any way; quite the opposite in fact; so I don't feel personally restrained when it comes to criticizing other nations and societies either.