The Excellent Ideas thread

[rowan]

How can rugby move forward, integrate existing forces in the game and develop new ones? What are the barriers impeding the progress of the non-elite masses and how might this best be addressed? Here are just a few ideas off the top of my head, starting from the top down:

1/ Fiji & the US to join Georgia and Romania with direct representation on an expanded World Rugby central committee.

2/ World Cup - increase to 24 teams. Six pools of 4 teams leading to 2nd-round knock outs, a la FIFA World Cups of 1986 - 1994 (& this year's Euros). Benefits, more teams get involved, more teams get a realistic shot at progressing from the pools (ie meaningful involvement, while 3 games instead of 4 means less thrashings likely for the real minnows), synchronized scheduling at the pool stages, emphasis moved from pool stages to knock-out rounds, the tournament would be slightly shorter yet involve a few more fixtures than the 20 team format. It was this format which first saw African teams start to come through at the FIFA World Cup.It might have a similar effect on rugby's so-called '2nd tier.' NB: Expansion should also entail a larger qualifying series.

3/ Dispense with the 'tiers' or 'bands' or whatever they're called now. This is simply a cop-out for the elite who would rather not play their geographical neighbors.

4/ Promotion-relegation between 6 Nations and ENC 1, involving a home & away series, thus creating an annual Pan-European championship unlike any other in international sports. Alternatively, a quadrennial 8-team Rugby Euros (remember, the football version only featured 8 teams prior to 1996) involving the 6 Nations and top two ENC teams. Failing this, a commitment by 6 Nations teams to play at least one ENC team per season.

5/ New Zealand and Australia to join Japan and the Pacific Islands in an early season 6 Nations involving two groups of three leading directly to a final and playoffs for 3rd and 5th. This could involve two groups (total 3 games per team) and be played within two weeks at a single location - perhaps rotating between NZ, Australia, Japan and a Fiji-based joint Pacific Islands effort. NB: The third Bledisloe Cup match could therefore be dropped, as the teams would almost certainly meet in this tournament anyway.

6/ South Africa to play an annual Bledisloe Cup-style trophy match with neighbors Namiba (Jan Ellis Cup)? Alternatively they could simply meet the ANC 1 winner, or perhaps field a non-white national selection against them (Leopards)?

7/ SANZAAR teams to play stop-off tests against Georgia, Romania and Russia (or Spain & Portugal in Argentina's case) during Autumn tours. 6 Nations to play the likes of Namibia, Uruguay & the Pacific Islands on their summer tours Down Under (Italy might even face the likes of Kenya, Chile or Brazil).

8/ Combine the Nations Cup & Tbilisi Cup into a Confederations Cup-type event, with the best teams from Asia, the Pacific, North America, South America and Africa (excuding Rugby Championship and Six Nations competitors) joining the host nations and next best ENC 1 team in 2 groups of 4 leading directly to a final.

9/ Hong Kong and Korea to be added to the Pacific Challenge Cup, which currently involves the A teams of the Pacific Island trio plus Japan Juniors, I believe. This would be the perfect vehicle for developing a couple more Asian teams.

10/ World Rugby should focus on raising the profile of 7s in the Caribbean, which seems far more suited to the abbreviated code than the orthodox version, and could conceivably produce some outstanding athletes in the very near future (who might go on to XVs). Interestingly Havana now has an annual 7s event underway. With a little financial assistance, this might be transformed from a social occasion into a high-profile international tournament.

11/ The Jaguars should move to the NZ Conference in Super Rugby, and the Sunwolves should move to Australia. The South African teams would then return to a single conference. This would mean 3 6-team conferences, much less travelling for Japan and the South Africans (and only a little more for Argentina), and a fairer playoffs system (returning to the Super XV model). Alternatively, the Australasian teams and Japan could break away and form their own 'Pacific Super 12' (with one team to be added), while South Africa and Argentina developed their own 'South Atlantic Super 8.' The respective winners could still meet in the final.

12/ A World Club Championship fixture should be fully supported by World Rugby and given the proper recognition. There is already an unofficial version held annual in France, though so far it has resembled more of a light training run.

[BBD]

Difficult to "discuss" all 12 ideas in one swoop

The general pattern emerging from the above is that you would like to see more lower tier teams play more amongst the higher tier teams, I don't disagree with the principle, but would urge caution rather than wholesale changes as your 12 items seem to be advocating.

ref no. 4 - Im not convinced that promotion/relegation from the 6N would be good for the game, All I can see as a best case scenario is a yoyo effect as a team goes up one year and down the next, unable to compete at the higher tier, the gulf is too wide to bridge and likely to get bigger given the changes to European Champions cup rugby. England & France will grow stronger and the rest of us will be left in a permanent relegation battle. A team needs time to evolve, grow and develop as players come through. Even with time its hard enough to get a side playing well once injuries happen and career spans expire. The 6N is already a brutal period in a brutal game, I cant see benefit for anyone in adding another side in (7N) or having a Yoyo side(eg Georgia)

[rowan]

Thanks for the feedback. It's not an automatic promotion-relegation system tho, and precisely for that reason. It's a home & away series and, frankly, I don't see Georgia nor anyone else breaking into the 6 Nations this side of 2030. But at least they'd have the chance, and something to aspire to. The very fact they cannot even aspire to this at the present is an impediment to their progress.

[BBD]

sorry, it wasn't meant as feedback, it was an admission that I couldn't honestly devote myself to commenting on all 12

ok, Im a bit more convinced, however the root of my issue lies with the teams that would be involved in the swapping when it does happen.
We all know that since professionalism emerged, that after a few false starts as clubs and nations found their feet and some lost out completely, that as in soccer, money talks. those with more dosh get to call the shots. On the face of it your idea(s) have merit, in giving teams a chance to step up. but what then?
You have one of the 6N sides in the second tier next year and a newly promoted tier 2 side in the 6N. Both need money to compete.
Year 1 - Lets say Georgia enter 6N - get stuffed by all, and go back into the relegation battle with side from Tier 2 (Lets say Wales, just to piss SandyDragon off ) Wales win, and Gatland is given a further 4 year extension on his contract
Year 2 - Wales have now to compete in the 6N with less revenue from the previous year because last year Wales vs Spain et al isn't quite filling the Millenium stadium . meanwhile Georgia, have gained a bit of experience and some money because Georgia vs England/France was a nice little earner. Maybe they still have the skeleton of a good squad and can afford to invest a bit and hopefully they invest wisely in infrastructure, facilities and coaching. So now they stand an even better chance of topping the tier 2 table and entering the promotion/relegation match, particularly if they now meet a depleted Wales side who not only had to compete in the 6N with less investment but undoubtedly will have suffered physically because of it. and so it goes on, I think the danger is that by lifting one side from the Tier 2 nations you are simply moving the gap. We need a solution that lifts all the tier 2 sides. If they could all play a Tier 1 side that might help, but fitting it into the international calendar and making it pay is the challenge.

In the end I think, we'd end up by simply swapping one side for another.........Georgia for Wales........where do I sign?

[rowan]

Well, I've already mentioned that the promotion-relegation would be a home & away affair and on that basis I really don't see Georgia or Romania (for example) breaking into the 6 Nations in the foreseeable future. If & when it does happen, then obviously it will be because Georgia or Romania (for example) have reached the required standard - in which case it would be criminal to go on denying them.

[BBD]

I accept the premise from a justice perspective, but it's the practicalities that rule it out for me

Money - to simply stage the home leg will be dicey, interest from the public could be high at the potential opportunity, provided of course that the optimism for success hasn't been crushed by an away hammering first. But the costs to stage such a game would be higher than usual too. To pay for an away leg would be costly too. The potential for the tier 1 side to make money on it would be hampered by fan apathy. They've just watched a losing 6N campaign, 5 games, with a 3/2 split home or away and now they are being asked to put their hands in their pockets again to watch a home leg that with respect should be a walkover and has to be televised? I can't see many fans from tier 1 nations thinking that's a good idea, let alone travelling to Georgia or Romania

Player fatigue - logically these two games should be played before the start of the preparation for the following seasons 6N campaign. I'd struggle to find a suitable gap in the playing schedule, unless you replace a few weekends in the Autum international. Regardless, the club sides they play for would object as their employees are away for a further month risking additional injury


I just can't see it being a viable solution until the tier 2 is a more viable competitive proposition and is more financially stable

[rowan]

We can agree to disagree on all that. I'd say stage the promotion-relegation series directly after both competitions have finished, and the fans will indeed come out to support their team in such a crucial encounter. You make a valid point in that fans may lose interest in the return fixture if the first encounter has been a walk-over. Therefore I would recommend the first leg be staged at the home of the ENC team. Anyway, I believe the benefits far outweigh the negatives, and that this is the simplest way to move forward and embrace the global rugby community. I've already made alternative suggestions for Europe, but this seems the best option to me.

[BBD]

With respect, you cannot simply dismiss two essential points on the cost of such a venture & the impact upon players and their employers, those are essential elements if your proposal is to be viable. If the matches are to be played then they have to be paid for, supported and players have to be made available. Particularly when you are proposing to stage it immediately after both competitions have finished and the other respective league teams have their players returned to them, that's a serious disadvantage to the sides whose players are involved

Using the example of Wales again, just because it amuses me, the current 6N window opens in late January and the last 6N games are on 18th March, their regions are without their star players for around 4 matches, that's on a roughly level playing field in the pro 12 as 4 nations lose players to international duty. In the bigger EPL and Top 14 the exodus of players for internationals is perhaps less prominent, but again largely on a level playing field.
The suggestion of a further two matches for the one nation involved in the play off would likely require a further 3 weekends if you were to include a rest weekend before they start or between the two legs therefore impacting a further 2 games minimum at the business end of the season. I cant see the clubs being too willing to give their rivals such an advantage, that's a potential 10 points, the difference in placings is massive. Add in to the mix that the players who make their livings in the EPL or Top 14, I cant see Jim Mallinder being too chuffed at George North ringing up and saying "sorry butty, but my country needs me for 3 more weeks see, hope you and the lads can make that push for Europe without me"

Again I accept that there is a wonderful overarching ultimate goal of globalising the game but Im not sure that I can see many advantages, let alone enough to outweigh the disadvantages

[Sandydragon]

Testing new post function.

[Sandydragon]

With respect, you cannot simply dismiss two essential points on the cost of such a venture & the impact upon players and their employers, those are essential elements if your proposal is to be viable. If the matches are to be played then they have to be paid for, supported and players have to be made available. Particularly when you are proposing to stage it immediately after both competitions have finished and the other respective league teams have their players returned to them, that's a serious disadvantage to the sides whose players are involved

Using the example of Wales again, just because it amuses me, the current 6N window opens in late January and the last 6N games are on 18th March, their regions are without their star players for around 4 matches, that's on a roughly level playing field in the pro 12 as 4 nations lose players to international duty. In the bigger EPL and Top 14 the exodus of players for internationals is perhaps less prominent, but again largely on a level playing field.
The suggestion of a further two matches for the one nation involved in the play off would likely require a further 3 weekends if you were to include a rest weekend before they start or between the two legs therefore impacting a further 2 games minimum at the business end of the season. I cant see the clubs being too willing to give their rivals such an advantage, that's a potential 10 points, the difference in placings is massive. Add in to the mix that the players who make their livings in the EPL or Top 14, I cant see Jim Mallinder being too chuffed at George North ringing up and saying "sorry butty, but my country needs me for 3 more weeks see, hope you and the lads can make that push for Europe without me"

Again I accept that there is a wonderful overarching ultimate goal of globalising the game but Im not sure that I can see many advantages, let alone enough to outweigh the disadvantages

Test quote

[rowan]

Well, those are all issues which would need to be worked through, obviously. The inaugural World Cup had plenty of dissenters too with reasons why it was totally impracticable and ludicrous. In fact, the Home Unions held out right up until the mid-80s, as I recall, and the NZRFU had to send the Cavaliers to SA to secure that nation's support for the concept. It could so easily never have happened, because many north of the equator thought it couldn't and shouldn't ...

[rowan]

The ravamped format has Argentina & Uruguay coming in for Japan and Tonga, but this is where I would have tried to get Hong Kong and/or Korea involved. It will be good for Uruguay, I suppose, but they're already involved in the Americas Cup and I think what they really need is more exposure to tier 1 opposition in between World Cups. So I'm not sure this tournament is really moving in the right direction as far as developing the international game goes, which is undoubtedly its only purpose.

World Rugby Americas Pacific Challenge 2016 fixtures:

Saturday, 8 October:
12:30 - Argentina XV v Canada A
14:30 - USA Selects v Fiji Warriors
16:30 - Samoa A v Uruguay A

Wednesday, 12 October:

12:30 - Samoa A v Fiji Warriors
14:30 - USA Selects v Canada A
16:30 - Argentina XV v Uruguay A

Sunday, 16 October

12:30 - Samoa A v Canada A
14:30 - USA Selects v Uruguay A
16:30 - Argentina XV v Fiji Warriors

http://www.worldrugby.org/news/189117

[rowan]

Meanwhile, they need to think about a name change, as neither South American participant is on the Pacific Coast...

[rowan]

10/ World Rugby should focus on raising the profile of 7s in the Caribbean, which seems far more suited to the abbreviated code than the orthodox version, and could conceivably produce some outstanding athletes in the very near future (who might go on to XVs). Interestingly Havana now has an annual 7s event underway. With a little financial assistance, this might be transformed from a social occasion into a high-profile international tournament.

Looks like they already have something along those lines after all. This took place last month: