Snap General Election called

[Mellsblue]

I think it was during the autumn.

Since when May has vacillated, and Corbyn has done..., well nothing. Go figure

Yep. Not really sure what has changed since then to put don’t know in to second.

[Banquo]

I think it was during the autumn.

Since when May has vacillated, and Corbyn has done..., well nothing. Go figure

Yep. Not really sure what has changed since then to put don’t know in to second.

There seemed to be some illusion that Corbyn was going to oppose Brexit, which has been thoroughly disabused.

[Digby]

Since when May has vacillated, and Corbyn has done..., well nothing. Go figure

Yep. Not really sure what has changed since then to put don’t know in to second.

There seemed to be some illusion that Corbyn was going to oppose Brexit, which has been thoroughly disabused.

Corbyn is probably more pro leaving than May, but being in opposition he's felt he didn't need to do anything. Whether Corbyn can keep his pro EU youth vote now they've confirmed stealing private firms as the core of the next manifesto I don't know, it does rather give the game away he's anti EU, but that should have been clear to anyone impressed with him from some time back

As an intellectual argument this might get interesting, so far it's been leaver Vs remainer but increasingly we're now going to get the more rabid Brexiters take on each other, 'cause there's no way Corbyn's take on what's needed equates to Mogg's. Sadly it's not only an intellectual argument and it'll play out in reality.

I wonder as an aside how much we've already spent on Brexit without anything actually happening?

[Banquo]

Yep. Not really sure what has changed since then to put don’t know in to second.

There seemed to be some illusion that Corbyn was going to oppose Brexit, which has been thoroughly disabused.

Corbyn is probably more pro leaving than May, but being in opposition he's felt he didn't need to do anything. Whether Corbyn can keep his pro EU youth vote now they've confirmed stealing private firms as the core of the next manifesto I don't know, it does rather give the game away he's anti EU, but that should have been clear to anyone impressed with him from some time back

As an intellectual argument this might get interesting, so far it's been leaver Vs remainer but increasingly we're now going to get the more rabid Brexiters take on each other, 'cause there's no way Corbyn's take on what's needed equates to Mogg's. Sadly it's not only an intellectual argument and it'll play out in reality.

I wonder as an aside how much we've already spent on Brexit without anything actually happening?

Yes, obviously, apart from those who thought Labour were going to ride to the rescue. As you say, Labour seemingly don't have to do anything save watch the Tories fck everything up. Surprising they've done any more than reveal their pet strategy, but McDonnell looks to now believe its in the bag and can state some policies. We shall see..

ETA, when I say policies I mean a wish list comprising sound bites

[Mellsblue]

There seemed to be some illusion that Corbyn was going to oppose Brexit, which has been thoroughly disabused.

Corbyn is probably more pro leaving than May, but being in opposition he's felt he didn't need to do anything. Whether Corbyn can keep his pro EU youth vote now they've confirmed stealing private firms as the core of the next manifesto I don't know, it does rather give the game away he's anti EU, but that should have been clear to anyone impressed with him from some time back

As an intellectual argument this might get interesting, so far it's been leaver Vs remainer but increasingly we're now going to get the more rabid Brexiters take on each other, 'cause there's no way Corbyn's take on what's needed equates to Mogg's. Sadly it's not only an intellectual argument and it'll play out in reality.

I wonder as an aside how much we've already spent on Brexit without anything actually happening?

As you say, Labour seemingly don't have to do anything save watch the Tories fck everything up.

Yet Corbyn is behind May and the parties are within the margin of error.

[Banquo]

Corbyn is probably more pro leaving than May, but being in opposition he's felt he didn't need to do anything. Whether Corbyn can keep his pro EU youth vote now they've confirmed stealing private firms as the core of the next manifesto I don't know, it does rather give the game away he's anti EU, but that should have been clear to anyone impressed with him from some time back

As an intellectual argument this might get interesting, so far it's been leaver Vs remainer but increasingly we're now going to get the more rabid Brexiters take on each other, 'cause there's no way Corbyn's take on what's needed equates to Mogg's. Sadly it's not only an intellectual argument and it'll play out in reality.

I wonder as an aside how much we've already spent on Brexit without anything actually happening?

As you say, Labour seemingly don't have to do anything save watch the Tories fck everything up.

Yet Corbyn is behind May and the parties are within the margin of error.

odd innit, but 3-4 years hence, the UK won't be U or K, and government by spreadsheet and brexit will make this an even bleaker place.

Depressing innit

[Digby]

the parties are within the margin of error.

More errors than the Quins defence against Wasps tbh

[Mellsblue]

As you say, Labour seemingly don't have to do anything save watch the Tories fck everything up.

Yet Corbyn is behind May and the parties are within the margin of error.

odd innit, but 3-4 years hence, the UK won't be U or K, and government by spreadsheet and brexit will make this an even bleaker place.

Depressing innit

The govt really need to base their domestic policy on inter-generational fairness - housing, wages, pensions etc etc - or, yep, the U.K. will no longer be united. Two new things today that show the differences between the generations: 1 in 4 middle class millennials own their own home as opppsed to 2 in 3 in the 90’s, and 62% of 18-24 year olds opppse the reintroduction of compulsory national service whilst 74% of 65+ support the idea.

There are quite a few ministers who realise this but they’re being blocked by Hammond’s spreadsheet and/or May’s negativity. So, yep, depressing.

[Banquo]

Yet Corbyn is behind May and the parties are within the margin of error.

odd innit, but 3-4 years hence, the UK won't be U or K, and government by spreadsheet and brexit will make this an even bleaker place.

Depressing innit

The govt really need to base their domestic policy on inter-generational fairness - housing, wages, pensions etc etc - or, yep, the U.K. will no longer be united. Two new things today that show the differences between the generations: 1 in 4 middle class millennials own their own home as opppsed to 2 in 3 in the 90’s, and 62% of 18-24 year olds opppse the reintroduction of compulsory national service whilst 74% of 65+ support the idea.

There are quite a few ministers who realise this but they’re being blocked by Hammond’s spreadsheet and/or May’s negativity. So, yep, depressing.

frankly, the middle looks ferked either way.

[Digby]

With Ann Black set to win the role to chair the Labour national policy forum (which basically sets the agenda for the manifesto going into an election) the NEC and the Unions decided in the name of democracy to cancel the vote. The problem it would seem is Ann Black is seen as too right wing in an age of the Dear Leader™ and Momentum, and thus it's important to not have the vote until they can fix who'll win.

Also it would seem no small amount of misogyny at work, but that along with an aversion to democracy is what drives much of what's left of Labour. I'd also note if Ann Black is seen as too right wing then Labour might worry people rather more than they might have feared last year.

Truly worrying times with the swivel eyed loons in control of both major parties.

[Zhivago]

With Ann Black set to win the role to chair the Labour national policy forum (which basically sets the agenda for the manifesto going into an election) the NEC and the Unions decided in the name of democracy to cancel the vote. The problem it would seem is Ann Black is seen as too right wing in an age of the Dear Leader™ and Momentum, and thus it's important to not have the vote until they can fix who'll win.

Also it would seem no small amount of misogyny at work, but that along with an aversion to democracy is what drives much of what's left of Labour. I'd also note if Ann Black is seen as too right wing then Labour might worry people rather more than they might have feared last year.

Truly worrying times with the swivel eyed loons in control of both major parties.

You don't know the first thing about democracy. Having an election for a powerful position in the party only a few days after the incumbent steps aside, therefore limiting participation, is not democracy. Also Momentum was not involved in this decision, so not sure why you mention them...

Actually I do know. It's because you are ideologically biased against them and resort to deceit to push your agenda. If it weren't for the fact that this place is not a major Internet forum, your persistent deception and underhanded debating style might lead one to suspect that you were a paid shill.

[Digby]

With Ann Black set to win the role to chair the Labour national policy forum (which basically sets the agenda for the manifesto going into an election) the NEC and the Unions decided in the name of democracy to cancel the vote. The problem it would seem is Ann Black is seen as too right wing in an age of the Dear Leader™ and Momentum, and thus it's important to not have the vote until they can fix who'll win.

Also it would seem no small amount of misogyny at work, but that along with an aversion to democracy is what drives much of what's left of Labour. I'd also note if Ann Black is seen as too right wing then Labour might worry people rather more than they might have feared last year.

Truly worrying times with the swivel eyed loons in control of both major parties.

You don't know the first thing about democracy. Having an election for a powerful position in the party only a few days after the incumbent steps aside, therefore limiting participation, is not democracy. Also Momentum was not involved in this decision, so not sure why you mention them...

Actually I do know. It's because you are ideologically biased against them and resort to deceit to push your agenda. If it weren't for the fact that this place is not a major Internet forum, your persistent deception and underhanded debating style might lead one to suspect that you were a paid shill.

(a) they were having the vote until the candidate momentum wanted wasn't going to win, okay it was the NEC who stepped in, but the whole point is that momentum has insinuated their supporters across the party to stop other voices being heard. had it been a Corbyn stooge going to win there's no way they'd have pulled the vote

(b) it's not like there are plenty of people in the Labour party including those who were at the NPF vote who don't think the exact same thing, so it's hardly a deceit to claim that what happened is what happened

(c) yes I'm biased against Dear Leader™ and momentum, just as you're biased in favour

(d) Ann Black is so far over on the left it remains worrying just how select the group that can be heard from might end up being

[Zhivago]

With Ann Black set to win the role to chair the Labour national policy forum (which basically sets the agenda for the manifesto going into an election) the NEC and the Unions decided in the name of democracy to cancel the vote. The problem it would seem is Ann Black is seen as too right wing in an age of the Dear Leader™ and Momentum, and thus it's important to not have the vote until they can fix who'll win.

Also it would seem no small amount of misogyny at work, but that along with an aversion to democracy is what drives much of what's left of Labour. I'd also note if Ann Black is seen as too right wing then Labour might worry people rather more than they might have feared last year.

Truly worrying times with the swivel eyed loons in control of both major parties.

You don't know the first thing about democracy. Having an election for a powerful position in the party only a few days after the incumbent steps aside, therefore limiting participation, is not democracy. Also Momentum was not involved in this decision, so not sure why you mention them...

Actually I do know. It's because you are ideologically biased against them and resort to deceit to push your agenda. If it weren't for the fact that this place is not a major Internet forum, your persistent deception and underhanded debating style might lead one to suspect that you were a paid shill.

(a) they were having the vote until the candidate momentum wanted wasn't going to win, okay it was the NEC who stepped in, but the whole point is that momentum has insinuated their supporters across the party to stop other voices being heard. had it been a Corbyn stooge going to win there's no way they'd have pulled the vote

(b) it's not like there are plenty of people in the Labour party including those who were at the NPF vote who don't think the exact same thing, so it's hardly a deceit to claim that what happened is what happened

(c) yes I'm biased against Dear Leader™ and momentum, just as you're biased in favour

(d) Ann Black is so far over on the left it remains worrying just how select the group that can be heard from might end up being

(a) The whole thing took place in only a few days. You make it sound like a proper vote with campaigning was held. That is dishonest.

(b) There are lots who think differently. The Labour right are a noisy and organised minority.

(c) This Dear Leader shit demeans you.

(d) This isn't about right or left, but about the fact that she tried to manipulate the leadership vote by excluding tens of thousands.

[Digby]

(a) The whole thing took place in only a few days. You make it sound like a proper vote with campaigning was held. That is dishonest.

(b) There are lots who think differently. The Labour right are a noisy and organised minority.

(c) This Dear Leader shit demeans you.

(d) This isn't about right or left, but about the fact that she tried to manipulate the leadership vote by excluding tens of thousands.

(a) again had it been a momentum approved candidate favoured to win the vote would have gone ahead.

(b) the Labour right are more a silent majority who once again find themselves cowed by a bunch of shitgibbons they already thought they'd rid themselves and the country of. I wish the Labour right would speak up, though given the threats it's a least in part understandable they don't want to come under attack from momentum

(c) more a personal highlight for me, though I'd grant it Corbyn demeans the country, whether meeting Russian spies, supporting the IRA, supporting Chavez, supporting Hezbollah (something of a terrorism theme emerging with the Dear Leader™), supporting misogyny and antisemitism, proposing to steal private firms, print money rather than raise funds... I'd grant Corbyn starts off my meaning well and genuinely wanting to see as he sees it a fairer society, and then he veers off into the long grass, way, way off into the long grass

(d) yep this isn't quite about left vs right, this is more momentum Vs Ann Black, so that would be left Vs someone on the left willing to at least hear from others in the party

[Zhivago]

(a) The whole thing took place in only a few days. You make it sound like a proper vote with campaigning was held. That is dishonest.

(b) There are lots who think differently. The Labour right are a noisy and organised minority.

(c) This Dear Leader shit demeans you.

(d) This isn't about right or left, but about the fact that she tried to manipulate the leadership vote by excluding tens of thousands.

(a) again had it been a momentum approved candidate favoured to win the vote would have gone ahead.

(b) the Labour right are more a silent majority who once again find themselves cowed by a bunch of shitgibbons they already thought they'd rid themselves and the country of. I wish the Labour right would speak up, though given the threats it's a least in part understandable they don't want to come under attack from momentum

(c) more a personal highlight for me, though I'd grant it Corbyn demeans the country, whether meeting Russian spies, supporting the IRA, supporting Chavez, supporting Hezbollah (something of a terrorism theme emerging with the Dear Leader™), supporting misogyny and antisemitism, proposing to steal private firms, print money rather than raise funds... I'd grant Corbyn starts off my meaning well and genuinely wanting to see as he sees it a fairer society, and then he veers off into the long grass, way, way off into the long grass

(d) yep this isn't quite about left vs right, this is more momentum Vs Ann Black, so that would be left Vs someone on the left willing to at least hear from others in the party

(a) pure hypothetical conjecture
(b) they aren't silent... they stage loads of PR stunts all the time to smear the labour left.
(c) now you're just repeating lazy smears from the tabloids
(d) Ann Black pissed off more than just Momentum with her shenanigans.

[Digby]

(a) pure hypothetical conjecture
(b) they aren't silent... they stage loads of PR stunts all the time to smear the labour left.
(c) now you're just repeating lazy smears from the tabloids
(d) Ann Black pissed off more than just Momentum with her shenanigans.

I'm willing to accept a lot of smears on my character, but not that I read tabloids, have some respect for others.

[Digby]

(a) pure hypothetical conjecture
(b) they aren't silent... they stage loads of PR stunts all the time to smear the labour left.
(c) now you're just repeating lazy smears from the tabloids
(d) Ann Black pissed off more than just Momentum with her shenanigans.

I'm willing to accept a lot of smears on my character, but not that I read tabloids, have some respect for others.

I've also checked, and in the days (and hours) leading up to the NEC pulling the vote Momentum were actively lobbying for their candidate, it's specifically not conjecture they moved to pull the vote after realising democracy would move against their wishes, it's much more a case of 2 legs bad 4 legs good

[Zhivago]

(a) pure hypothetical conjecture
(b) they aren't silent... they stage loads of PR stunts all the time to smear the labour left.
(c) now you're just repeating lazy smears from the tabloids
(d) Ann Black pissed off more than just Momentum with her shenanigans.

I'm willing to accept a lot of smears on my character, but not that I read tabloids, have some respect for others.

I've also checked, and in the days (and hours) leading up to the NEC pulling the vote Momentum were actively lobbying for their candidate, it's specifically not conjecture they moved to pull the vote after realising democracy would move against their wishes, it's much more a case of 2 legs bad 4 legs good

You didn't check hard enough. Momentum's NEC representative Shawcroft wasn't present for the NEC decision.

Below is the full picture of what happened. Please read it with an open mind. More than happy if you can find holes in what is written.

https://skwawkbox.org/2018/02/18/excl-p ... -by-right/

[Digby]

I'm willing to accept a lot of smears on my character, but not that I read tabloids, have some respect for others.

I've also checked, and in the days (and hours) leading up to the NEC pulling the vote Momentum were actively lobbying for their candidate, it's specifically not conjecture they moved to pull the vote after realising democracy would move against their wishes, it's much more a case of 2 legs bad 4 legs good

You didn't check hard enough. Momentum's NEC representative Shawcroft wasn't present for the NEC decision.

Below is the full picture of what happened. Please read it with an open mind. More than happy if you can find holes in what is written.

https://skwawkbox.org/2018/02/18/excl-p ... -by-right/

This feels rather like trying to convince a flat earthist or anti-vaxxer, which is to say a total waste of my time to even engage on however a limited basis.

I agree they could have had a longer campaign, though it doesn't sound like they need to, but it was proceeding as an election until momentum realised they were going to lose. And it's not just me who's never voted Labour that's obvious to, it's even obvious to many on the left of the Labour party.

And really this is stupid from momentum, they could have simply allowed the election of Black who frankly is basically as far left as them, and certainly someone they could live with on the council. Instead they've made it easy for the likes of me to mock them as the misogynistic loons who fear democracy that they are, but they're so desperate for control they've done this instead the pillocks. (And the the cherry on top they even managed a brilliant piece of mansplaining in the process)

[Zhivago]

I've also checked, and in the days (and hours) leading up to the NEC pulling the vote Momentum were actively lobbying for their candidate, it's specifically not conjecture they moved to pull the vote after realising democracy would move against their wishes, it's much more a case of 2 legs bad 4 legs good

You didn't check hard enough. Momentum's NEC representative Shawcroft wasn't present for the NEC decision.

Below is the full picture of what happened. Please read it with an open mind. More than happy if you can find holes in what is written.

https://skwawkbox.org/2018/02/18/excl-p ... -by-right/

This feels rather like trying to convince a flat earthist or anti-vaxxer, which is to say a total waste of my time to even engage on however a limited basis.

I agree they could have had a longer campaign, though it doesn't sound like they need to, but it was proceeding as an election until momentum realised they were going to lose. And it's not just me who's never voted Labour that's obvious to, it's even obvious to many on the left of the Labour party.

And really this is stupid from momentum, they could have simply allowed the election of Black who frankly is basically as far left as them, and certainly someone they could live with on the council. Instead they've made it easy for the likes of me to mock them as the misogynistic loons who fear democracy that they are, but they're so desperate for control they've done this instead the pillocks. (And the the cherry on top they even managed a brilliant piece of mansplaining in the process)

Look I honestly don't know why I keep trying, because I live in Amsterdam and am mostly unaffected by our incompetent politicians. But I genuinely believe that left wing politics is the answer to our societal problems, and I also hate being manipulated by PR trickery, so I continue to defend those on the receiving end of these machievellian plots.

And it is also very sad that you fall for their ploys time and time again. I mean how gullible do you have to be.

[Digby]

Wanting left wing policies is fine, I'm not going to support/vote for Scocialism but I can respect others who do. Defending someone like Corbyn simply because he's a socialist no matter how he and momentum behave I don't think acceptable, it's akin to those in the USA who wanting anti abortion judges and pro gun policies will defend Trump. You want lefty policies fine, but at least get behind a left wing candidate with morals, and not simply go with the first opportunity no matter all that comes with it.

[Zhivago]

Wanting left wing policies is fine, I'm not going to support/vote for Scocialism but I can respect others who do. Defending someone like Corbyn simply because he's a socialist no matter how he and momentum behave I don't think acceptable, it's akin to those in the USA who wanting anti abortion judges and pro gun policies will defend Trump. You want lefty policies fine, but at least get behind a left wing candidate with morals, and not simply go with the first opportunity no matter all that comes with it.

I don't defend him simply cos he's a socialist. Corbyn is one of the most moral politicians in parliament. Your comparison with the far right in America is farcical.

Your opinion of him is based on falsehoods, which is very unfortunate. I'd feel embarrassed if I'd been tricked into believing lies like you have been, to be quite frank.

[Digby]

Wanting left wing policies is fine, I'm not going to support/vote for Scocialism but I can respect others who do. Defending someone like Corbyn simply because he's a socialist no matter how he and momentum behave I don't think acceptable, it's akin to those in the USA who wanting anti abortion judges and pro gun policies will defend Trump. You want lefty policies fine, but at least get behind a left wing candidate with morals, and not simply go with the first opportunity no matter all that comes with it.

I don't defend him simply cos he's a socialist. Corbyn is one of the most moral politicians in parliament. Your comparison with the far right in America is farcical.

Your opinion of him is based on falsehoods, which is very unfortunate. I'd feel embarrassed if I'd been tricked into believing lies like you have been, to be quite frank.

His support for terrorists across the globe is enough for me to condemn him

[fivepointer]

Wanting left wing policies is fine, I'm not going to support/vote for Scocialism but I can respect others who do. Defending someone like Corbyn simply because he's a socialist no matter how he and momentum behave I don't think acceptable, it's akin to those in the USA who wanting anti abortion judges and pro gun policies will defend Trump. You want lefty policies fine, but at least get behind a left wing candidate with morals, and not simply go with the first opportunity no matter all that comes with it.

I don't defend him simply cos he's a socialist. Corbyn is one of the most moral politicians in parliament. Your comparison with the far right in America is farcical.

Your opinion of him is based on falsehoods, which is very unfortunate. I'd feel embarrassed if I'd been tricked into believing lies like you have been, to be quite frank.

I used to think that. But having dug just a little deeper into his past, his previous associations, the people he has met and worked with, the causes he has supported, the regimes he has uncritically backed, the positions he has adopted and you start to see a very different person from the one often portrayed.

[Zhivago]

Wanting left wing policies is fine, I'm not going to support/vote for Scocialism but I can respect others who do. Defending someone like Corbyn simply because he's a socialist no matter how he and momentum behave I don't think acceptable, it's akin to those in the USA who wanting anti abortion judges and pro gun policies will defend Trump. You want lefty policies fine, but at least get behind a left wing candidate with morals, and not simply go with the first opportunity no matter all that comes with it.

I don't defend him simply cos he's a socialist. Corbyn is one of the most moral politicians in parliament. Your comparison with the far right in America is farcical.

Your opinion of him is based on falsehoods, which is very unfortunate. I'd feel embarrassed if I'd been tricked into believing lies like you have been, to be quite frank.

His support for terrorists across the globe is enough for me to condemn him

Alleged.

Repeating the malicious smears isn't helping your cause.