Sandydragon wrote:British Jews concerned by a labour leader who seems far too close to those who push anti Semitic rubbish. If a right wing leader were to be so associated the cries of ‘Nazi’ would be loud and wide, yet St Corbyn would never associate with such people, even when he does and fails to apologise.
There is an anti semitism issue in Labour, but it is no greater than in the country as a whole, and also not larger than in other parties. It is being reported and discussed more in Labour though, that's for sure.
Something about the Nile being a river in Africa springs to mind.
There's no question the Labour party has given a more prominent role to many who take issue with the West and to Israel, and at the very least they're associating with those who hold anti Semitic views. Also worth noting many of those strongly opposed to Israel also have some cultural issues with women so it's giving the Labour party more of a problem with misogynists.
Both the anti semitism and misogyny is overlooked it would seem in the name of the greater good of a certain strand of socialism that seeks to rewrite how society in the West operates
Shocking Reminds me so much of the situation in South Africa when the Americans and British were still propping the Apartheid regime up . . .
Israeli forces have killed seven unarmed Palestinians in Gaza, including a 16 year old, as thousands march for freedom and to return to their homes.
The “Great March of Return” has been organized by civil society organizations and all political factions in the besieged enclave.
Israel has perpetrated an 11-year blockade against Gaza’s 2 million men, women, causing malnutrition. Many are refugees and their descendants from the 1948 war of ethnic cleansing by which Israel was created and stole their homes and land.
At least seven Palestinians have been killed and hundreds of others wounded during clashes with Israeli forces as thousands marched near Gaza’s border with Israel in a major demonstration marking the 42nd anniversary of Land Day.
Mohammed Najjar, 25, was shot in the stomach in a clash east of Jabalia in the northern Gaza Strip while 38-year-old Amin Mahmoud Muammarin and Mohammed Abu Omar were both shot dead in Rafah, the Palestinian health ministry said in a statement on Friday.
The fourth victim was identified as 16-year-old Ahmed Oudeh, while the fifth was identified as 33-year-old Jihad Freneh.
Earlier on Friday, Omar Samour, a 31-year-old farmer from Gaza was also killed by Israeli artillery fire while standing on his land near Khan Yunis, just hours ahead of the demonstrations.
There has been no immediate confirmation from the Israeli army of the strike.
More than 550 Palestinians were also injured after Israeli forces fired live ammunition at the protesters and used tear gas to push them back from a heavily fortified fence, according to the Red Crescent.
The demonstration commemorates Land Day, which marks the day – March 30, 1976 – when six Palestinian citizens of Israel were killed by Israeli forces during protests over Israeli land confiscations.
The march was called for by all political factions and several Palestinian civil society organizations in the besieged enclave.
Speaking to the marchers, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said: “The Palestinian people have proved time after time that they can take the initiative and do great things. This march is the beginning of the return to all of Palestine.”
Protesters in Gaza have gathered in five different spots along the border, originally positioned about 700 meters away from the fence.
The Israeli army deployed more than 100 snipers on the other side of the border with permission to fire, Gadi Eizenkot, the Israeli military chief of staff, told an Israeli newspaper on Wednesday.
Friday’s demonstration is also set to kick off six weeks of protests leading up to the inauguration of the new US embassy in Jerusalem around May 14.
Reuters reports: “The Israeli military has deployed more than 100 sharpshooters on the Gaza border ahead of a planned mass Palestinian demonstration, Israel’s top general said in an interview published on Wednesday.”
Organizers of the protest say they expect thousands in Gaza, including entire families, to answer their call for a peaceful protest. Demonstrators are to gather in tent cities in five locations along the border for a right of return of Palestinian refugees to what is now called Israel.
The Times of Israel reports that in addition to the snipers, “Israeli police officers will be stationed a bit farther back, in order to keep back any Palestinians who breach the first line of defense.” Israel is also expected to deploy drones against the protesters.
Israels Ynet News reports: “Thousands of soldiers from the Golani Brigade, the Armored Corps, the Nahal Brigade and the Givati Brigade, as well as troops from the Combat Intelligence Collection Corps, Air Force video units and Special Forces will be deployed along the Gaza frontier.”
A woman sits outside a tent at a Palestinian protest camp near Gaza’s border with Israel on March 29, 2018. (AFP Photo/MAHMUD HAMS)>
Israel has imposed a military enforced “no go” zone for Palestinians on their own land in Gaza next to Israel’s border fence, and has shot numerous farmers and nonviolent demonstrators who have entered it.
On Wednesday the Israeli military bulldozers invaded the “no go” zone to bulldoze structures, and has erected additional barbed wire fencing on the Gaza side of the Israeli barrier.
Ynet reports that soldiers have built fortifications in the form of massive mounds of earth, behind which Israeli snipers will be stationed on Friday. “IDF engineering forces also set up barbed-wire fences to make it harder on Palestinians who may attempt to cross the border fence.”
Israeli soldiers are seen near the Gaza border, Wednesday, March 28, 2018. (AP Photo/Tsafrir Abayov)
The demonstration will start on “Land Day”, which commemorates six Palestinian citizens of Israel killed by Israeli forces in 1976 while they participated in demonstrations against Israeli confiscation of their land in the Galilee. Israeli forces also wounded 100 people and arrested hundreds more in the largely Christian area.
Some reports suggest that 100,000 Gazans may gather tomorrow. Organizers say that the activities would be “popular and non-violent,’ and without weapons or confrontations.
AFP reports that the Gaza Health Ministry said Israeli soldiers shot five Palestinians Thursday evening after protestors approached the border in several places.
Motivating the demonstrators are numerous factors: A desire to return to homes confiscated by Israel in its 1948 ethnic cleansing – many of those forced out fled to Gaza; Israel’s refusal to abide by international law and allow these refugees and their descendanats to return to their homes; Israel’s continued confiscation of Palestinian land in the years since; its periodic invasions of Gaza in which numerous civilians and children have been killed; and Israel’s over decade long blockade of Gaza that has effectively imprisoned its almost two million men, women, and children, causing increased poverty, suffering, and malnutrition.
Israeli Cabinet: Shoot to kill
According to IMEMC, the Israeli ministerial cabinet held a special meeting Wednesday to discuss the expected protests. “The Cabinet decided to significantly increase military deployments, in addition to using live fire and shoot to kill orders ‘if the Palestinians breach (or approach) the security fence.’” Israeli forces have frequently killed and injured people taking part in unarmed protests.
According to international law, all refugees have the right to return to their homes. Israel, however, has refused to adhere to the law and has confiscated their land for Jewish-only habitation, while the refugees and their descendants often live in poverty in densely populated refugee camps in Gaza and throughout the region.
Palestine Chronicle reports: “Sit-ins will start in the besieged Gaza Strip and spread to the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem and within Israel itself. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees from refugee camps across Jordan, Lebanon and Syria are also expected to participate in the mass action.”
IMEMC reports that “a member of the Coordination Committee of the ‘Great Return March,’ said the protests would take off from five areas in the Gaza Strip, starting Friday at ten in the morning from the tents that were installed in Rafah, Khan Younis, Central District, Northern District and near Beit Hanoun (Erez) Terminal.
“He added that protests would be unarmed, nonviolent, and that the Palestinians are demanding the internationally guaranteed Right of Return of all refugees, as stated in Article 4 of UN Resolution #194.
“Shreiteh stated that the United Nations has affirmed this right 130 times, and that the protesters will gradually and nonviolently march towards the border fence.
“He said that the Palestinians are not seeking confrontation, and will be nonviolent, parallel with many processions will also be held across the West Bank, and various countries, especially in Lebanon.
“’There are 1.300.000 refugees living in very difficult conditions, and extreme poverty in the Gaza Strip alone,’ Shreiteh stated, ‘We want our rights; we want to return, we want the implementation of International Law.’”
Israeli forces have invaded Gaza numerous times in recent years. Following a 2009 assault there was a controversy over T-shirts worn by some Israeli soldiers celebrating their killing of women and children:
Statement by Israel’s B’Tselem
Ahead of the Palestinian demonstrations planned to start tomorrow (Friday) in Gaza, Israeli officials have repeatedly threatened to respond with lethal force. Completely ignoring the humanitarian disaster in Gaza and Israel’s responsibility for it, they are couching the planned protest in terms of a security risk, framing the demonstrators as terrorists and referring to Gaza as a “combat zone”. Fragments of information reported by the media indicate that: soldiers will be ordered to shoot anyone coming within 300 meters of the fence; snipers will fire at anyone touching it; live fire will be used also in circumstances which are non-life-threatening. In other words: shoot-to-kill unarmed Palestinians taking part in these demonstrations.
Israeli forces have already been lethally shooting Palestinian demonstrators in Gaza for some time. In December 2017 alone – the most lethal month in the last year – Israeli forces shot and killed eight unarmed Palestinian demonstrators in Gaza. [more information here] Expanding this unlawful use of live fire will undoubtedly raise the death toll. Yet this predictable outcome appears not to have affected Israeli decision-making regarding the response to demonstrations in Gaza, both in general and specifically in formulating the open-fire orders.
Further, Israel’s presumption that it can dictate the actions of Palestinians inside the Gaza Strip is absurd. The decision where and whether and how to demonstrate in Gaza is not Israel’s to make – not with regard to tomorrow’s demonstrations nor in general with regard to daily life.
Official Israeli statements have made no reference to the actual reason for the protest – the disastrous reality in Gaza – or to the right to free protest. Israel has the power to immediately change life in Gaza for the better, but has chosen not to do so. It has made Gaza a huge prison, yet forbids the prisoners even to protest against this, on pain of death.
Conditions in Gaza caused by Israeli siege
According to a January report of the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor, cited by We Are Not Numbers:
97 percent of Gaza water is unfit for human consumption.
45 percent of medicines are absent from the warehouses of the Gaza Ministry of Health, along with 28 percent of needed medical equipment.
50 percent of Palestinian children need psychological counseling.
Only 54 percent of requested medical transfers to outside hospitals in 2017 were approved—the lowest since 2006.
44 percent of the adult Gaza population is unemployed. Among youth, it’s 62 percent and among those with disabilities, it’s 90 percent.
65 percent of families live in poverty (95 percent among fishermen) and more than 72 percent don’t have enough food.
Tomorrow’s protest is due to last until May 15, “Nakba day” (“Catastrophe” in English), which marks the expulsion of Palestinian Muslims and Christians in order to create the Jewish state of Israel in 1948.
I was going to guess on a 50/50 that you've added either an Israeli/US conspiracy theory so insane it wouldn't make the 25th episode of a series featuring jack Bauer, or you've penned a fetishistic piece on Assange, but it could just be a long and pointless copy and paste of any old crap.
You regard the killing of unarmed native civilians, including a 16-year-old, by a heavily armed occupying force, as pointless? Good grief, man, anyone who thinks killing of unarmed civilians is pointless is in serious need of psychiatric help!
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
Labour has a big problem with antisemitism that it needs to urgently and thoroughly tackle.
What is and has been going on in Gaza is indefensible. The Israeli government needs to be properly held to account for the appalling treatment meted out to the Palestinian population.
Labour has a big problem with antisemitism that it needs to urgently and thoroughly tackle.
What is and has been going on in Gaza is indefensible. The Israeli government needs to be properly held to account for the appalling treatment meted out to the Palestinian population.
True, and I’d add that your second point in no way, shape or form excuses your first point to even the slightest degree.
I do think that the media is focusing on the issue of antisemitism in Labour as a way to attack Corbyn. That doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist, but it's cost there isn't the same pressure on May when her ministers are racist. E. G. Boris...
Sandydragon wrote:British Jews concerned by a labour leader who seems far too close to those who push anti Semitic rubbish. If a right wing leader were to be so associated the cries of ‘Nazi’ would be loud and wide, yet St Corbyn would never associate with such people, even when he does and fails to apologise.
There is an anti semitism issue in Labour, but it is no greater than in the country as a whole, and also not larger than in other parties. It is being reported and discussed more in Labour though, that's for sure.
Slow news week. Despite 100's of people dying on the West Bank,....the story continues to be 2 living people still living in Sailsbury and Jezza being an anti semite.
lol
Sandydragon wrote:British Jews concerned by a labour leader who seems far too close to those who push anti Semitic rubbish. If a right wing leader were to be so associated the cries of ‘Nazi’ would be loud and wide, yet St Corbyn would never associate with such people, even when he does and fails to apologise.
There is an anti semitism issue in Labour, but it is no greater than in the country as a whole, and also not larger than in other parties. It is being reported and discussed more in Labour though, that's for sure.
Slow news week. Despite 100's of people dying on the West Bank,....the story continues to be 2 living people still living in Sailsbury and Jezza being an anti semite.
lol
Indeed. The humanitarian crises Britain has contributed to throughout the Middle East are the very reason the Russian bogeyman needs to be back in the headlines, of course. That's the nature of propaganda.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
Your capacity to conflate issues is stomach churning, Rowan.
What Israel is doing in Gaza is a crime. It is a crime against humanitarian law and it is a crime against humanity. It is a crime against the international laws of armed conflict. It is disgusting.
It does not need you to attach it to any other issue that you may regard as criminal. It stands alone and people like you, who think you are elevating its crime by making it part of a global conspiracy, simply detract from it and alienate many who would otherwise sympathise.
SerjeantWildgoose wrote:Your capacity to conflate issues is stomach churning, Rowan.
What Israel is doing in Gaza is a crime. It is a crime against humanitarian law and it is a crime against humanity. It is a crime against the international laws of armed conflict. It is disgusting.
It does not need you to attach it to any other issue that you may regard as criminal. It stands alone and people like you, who think you are elevating its crime by making it part of a global conspiracy, simply detract from it and alienate many who would otherwise sympathise.
Talk about conflating issues! Suggesting that Israel has the backing of the West, and that the West needs to keep the Russian bogeyman alive to justify its genocidal wars in the Middle East, is not a global conspiracy but a fact, pure and simple. & if people are 'alienated' from crimes against humanitary so easily, there is something very wrong with their sense of morality.
You simply have a massive problem with the fact that I don't go along with NATO's countless war crimes and racist propaganda, and therefore attempt to twist whatever I write into something sinister. That's the ad hominem approach, pure and simple. You never even attempt to deal with the subject matter. & ostentatious terminology won't cut it either.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
Would it help if I simply cut and paste a few thousand words of conspiracy-theorist babble peppered with a hundred emoji and punctuated with a picture of a Brazilian girl’s tits?
SerjeantWildgoose wrote:Would it help if I simply cut and paste a few thousand words of conspiracy-theorist babble peppered with a hundred emoji and punctuated with a picture of a Brazilian girl’s tits?
Only the latter will be necessary, thank you.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
There’s this old party activist called Sid I’ve known for years who comes into the office sometimes to help with the post. Today he brings up the way that everybody is suddenly cross with me for supporting an antisemitic mural on Facebook way back in 2012.
“I can’t believe what these people are trying to do to you,” he says.
“Thank you,” I say. “Hang on. Which people?”
Sid says he thinks we both know which people. “Hmmm,” I say.
That’s when John McDonnell walks in, takes one look at Sid, and tells him to get the hell out and not come back. Then he asks why the hell I was associating with somebody like that.
“But I’ve known him for years,” I protest. “And he’s very loyal.”
“You didn’t notice that he always wears that armband and that helmet with the spike on top?” asks John.
“I sincerely regret,” I say, “that I did not look more closely.”
Tuesday
Crisis meeting. Yesterday Jewish groups organised a protest against me in Parliament Square. Loads of Labour MPs were there. “And I think it’s pretty obvious,” says Seumas Milne, grimly, “what they all have in common.”
Len McCluskey says he didn’t know Chuka Umunna was Jewish.
“Not that,” says Seumas.
“Oh,” says Len.
Then the guy from the pro-Corbyn group that staged a rival demo yesterday says my critics aren’t in touch with most real Jews anyway, and his group is, and they’re launching a membership drive to prove it.
“With a hog roast,” he says. “On Saturday.” Then everybody starts yelling. Then Diane Abbott says we really don’t need this right now.
Particularly as people have only just stopped accusing us of being in league with Russia.
“You know who else stopped being in league with Russia?” says the former mayor of London. “Not now, Ken!” shouts Seumas.
Wednesday
When I’m stressed, I make jam. And other forms of preservatives. Or at least, that’s what I tell people, but somehow in practice it’s always jam.
My two chief aides are both called Andrew. Elbow deep in the berry pot, I tell one Andrew he needs to draw up a list of my most passionate cheerleaders, so we can thank them. Then I tell the other Andrew he needs to draw up a list of people who might embarrass us in the future, so we can kick them out. “My bit is easy,” says the first Andrew, “because 2,000 of your most passionate cheerleaders have just signed this open letter of support!”
“Great!” I say.
Then he looks at it, and says it complains I’m under attack by “a very powerful special interest group”. After that for a moment none of us says anything. Then I nod sadly and the first Andrew merely hands the letter to the second Andrew.
“On the bright side,” I say, “this has been a very productive meeting.”
Thursday
I’m in my office staring at the wall. Seumas has stopped answering the phone. Hamas keeps calling, wondering if things have changed.
“Jeremy,” he says, miserably, “I’m being harassed.”
“But we’re the good people,” I say. “So how can all these bad people think we’re their friends?”
John McDonnell says it might be because I keep telling them we are.
“Yes, but apart from that,” I say.
Somehow, says Seumas, we need to remind people that this is all about the local elections. Because if it wasn’t for them, nobody would care.
“Exactly!” I shout. “Oh, wait. Apart from us.”
Friday
Now Christine Shawcroft, who sits on our NEC, is in trouble for defending a local member who denied the Holocaust on Facebook. She says she hadn’t actually looked at the post, but just instinctively defended it because it came from somebody she felt might win us a council seat.
Publicly, I’m not calling on her to resign, but privately I’m at the end of my tether.
“For God’s sake!” I shout at Christine. “What sort of person is so blind to antisemitism that they’ll defend a horrible Facebook post simply because it came from somebody who shares their broader politics?”
Palestine's Black Friday - Israel Defence Forces tweeted, then deleted this after firing into 30,000 peaceful protest marchers, killing 17 and wounding hundreds. If this isn't reminiscent of Bloody Sunday and the Sharpseville Massacre, I don't know what is. Theresa May's response to this has been deafening. Quick - ramp up the Russian bogeyman conspiracies and anti-Semitism accusations!!
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
Fucking hell. That is not OK. ANY form of protest those poor bastards attempt that draws attention to that inhuman blockade is met with extreme prejudice.
They had hundreds of armed officers and dozens of snipers in position for what was promoted as a peaceful march. Imagine that in America? Kent State would've seemed like a picnic next to this. In fact, 17 is the same number as were killed in Florida last month in the Parkland High School massacre that so shocked Americans...
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
Zhivago wrote:
There is an anti semitism issue in Labour, but it is no greater than in the country as a whole, and also not larger than in other parties. It is being reported and discussed more in Labour though, that's for sure.
Slow news week. Despite 100's of people dying on the West Bank,....the story continues to be 2 living people still living in Sailsbury and Jezza being an anti semite.
lol
Indeed. The humanitarian crises Britain has contributed to throughout the Middle East are the very reason the Russian bogeyman needs to be back in the headlines, of course. That's the nature of propaganda.
Other parties have idiots who make racist comments. They get disciplined and often booted out. In labour, councillors who make anti Semitic comments are temporarily expelled and then quietly allowed back in. Meanwhile Corbyn sends his sympathy to a third rate street artist who paints a mural so blatantly anti Semitic that a GCSE student could notice it. His senior supporters are no better, and often worse.
But we know there isn’t a problem because a nice little whitewashed report said so.
The difference, which should be obvious but I’ll spell it out anyway, is that racist lunatics who join the Tory party are booted out or generally keep their views to themselves. In labour, they are running the party.
If this is a story that keeps on running it’s because Corbyn has convinced no one that his attempts to stamp on the problem are sincere. Perhaps it’s easier to blame the media then piss off your core supporters.
What are you thoughts on the massacre in Gaza, Sandy? & why have you deliberately mixed up comments and news connected to it with your own comments on anti-Semitism in Britain? The two things are not connected - notwithstanding efforts to divert attention from the former with the latter, which has long been a standard tactic of Israel and its supporters. But please do not insert quotes attributed to me into your own discussions about anti-Semitism in Britain, which I have taken no part in whatsoever. Cheers.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
Sandydragon wrote:
Other parties have idiots who make racist comments. They get disciplined and often booted out. In labour, councillors who make anti Semitic comments are temporarily expelled and then quietly allowed back in.
What happened to the nice lady who extolled Hitler as a great person (possibly the greatest person) for killing so many Jews, I know Labour suspended her but I don't recall if she was ever let back in?
And it's not just Labour who have this problem since electing the Glorious Leader™ there's UKIP who behave in similar fashion. And as is so often noted it's daft as it allows for an easy deflection on many issues where Israel does rather seem to go too far
rowan wrote:What are you thoughts on the massacre in Gaza, Sandy? & why have you deliberately mixed up comments and news connected to it with your own comments on anti-Semitism in Britain? The two things are not connected - notwithstanding efforts to divert attention from the former with the latter, which has long been a standard tactic of Israel and its supporters. But please do not insert quotes attributed to me into your own discussions about anti-Semitism in Britain, which I have taken no part in whatsoever. Cheers.
I notice that when th players get of Jews is discussed, someone links to Israel and th Palestinians. It’s a deflection, the 2 issues are separate.
Any clown who links the actions of Israel to dislike of Jews in Britain is a fucking idiot.
My view on the Israeli Palestine problem is that there are a lot of decent people who want peace, but both sides have thei fair share of extremists who don’t. I don’t believe in the simple digital view that one side is completely to blame for the current situation.
As for deflection, that’s your standard tactic mate, this thread has been about comrade corbyn for quite some time, I could throw that accusation back at you, particularly as you have a habit of doing just that on other threads.
Sandydragon wrote:
Other parties have idiots who make racist comments. They get disciplined and often booted out. In labour, councillors who make anti Semitic comments are temporarily expelled and then quietly allowed back in.
What happened to the nice lady who extolled Hitler as a great person (possibly the greatest person) for killing so many Jews, I know Labour suspended her but I don't recall if she was ever let back in?
And it's not just Labour who have this problem since electing the Glorious Leader™ there's UKIP who behave in similar fashion. And as is so often noted it's daft as it allows for an easy deflection on many issues where Israel does rather seem to go too far
Indeed. It seems that lunatic politics is the order of the day at the moment in the U.K. the only positive’ about UKIP is they aren’t anywhere near getting into power, whereas millions regard corbyn as some kind of kindly grandad.
Israel deserves criticism for many of its actions. But, some people just can’t help themselves. What makes it really odd from th left wing perspective is the long history of Jews in socialism.
Reminds me so much of the situation in South Africa when the Americans and British were still propping the Apartheid regime up . . .
