Ringfencing draws closer

[fivepointer]

"Nonetheless, there is an expectation that ring-fencing will be pushed through to start from the 2020-21 season when that agreement has ended. At present the Championship clubs receive in the region of £550,000 and that is likely to increase in the event of ring-fencing. As the current deal will have ended only a majority vote will be required and it is hard to imagine that not happening considering most Championship clubs are so reliant on the funding that comes from the RFU and Premiership Rugby Ltd"
But while ring-fencing seems increasingly inevitable, the issue of how to fit at least 13 clubs into a 12-team league remains. With relegation looming for London Irish, some clubs have looked into buying their shares from them but the Exiles have no intention of selling. Ealing Trailfinders, second in the Championship behind Bristol, have demonstrated the ambition – and significantly possess the requisite finances – to join the top flight, and it is understood the RFU has not ruled out a 14-team league, even if PRL is digging its heels in. Yorkshire Carnegie, who had their own Premiership shares until the end of last year, and Cornish Pirates have also demonstrated their ambitions with new stadiums planned, while Doncaster Knights have expressed an interest in joining the Premiership. Coventry, who will join the Championship next season, are also thinking big.

And if a 13- or 14-team Premiership were to materialise, it may be the European competitions that feel the pinch. There is a feeling that the Champions Cup has lost its aura with more than half of the Premiership taking part this season and fewer European matches would allow for an expanded top flight in England without adding to player workload"

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... ip-wrangle

[Which Tyler]

Stupid idea.
Always has been, always will be (absent massive concessions from PRL, like ring fencing the top 20, not top 14, and putting them in 2 divisions).

If it comes about as PRL have always wanted, that will absolutely signal the end of my interest in premiership rugby.

[Mellsblue]

Not sure about their research on the Champ clubs. Leeds’ stadium will be ready for next season but Pirates still haven’t secured funding. IIRC, Stadium for Cornwall now requires matched funding from central govt. Doncaster can have their stadium ready in a few months once they need it. Coventry may be ambitious but I can’t see the city being able to accommodate two viable teams. I can’t see Ealing having the requisite finances beyond their sugar daddy; though, I only have limited info on them beyond the depth of the sugar daddy’s pockets and size of their crowds.

Loving the irony that the European comp the PRL fought so hard for may now be the fall guy.

[Which Tyler]

Loving the irony that the European comp the PRL fought so hard for may now be the fall guy.

Those big meanie foreigners keep beating us, after all the hard work we out into screwing them over! It's not fair, and if they don't start letting us win, we're going to take our ball away.

Personally I'll start supporting Clermont, and someone in the Champ or ND1 instead

[Puja]

Loving the irony that the European comp the PRL fought so hard for may now be the fall guy.

Those big meanie foreigners keep beating us, after all the hard work we out into screwing them over! It's not fair, and if they don't start letting us win, we're going to take our ball away.

Personally I'll start supporting Clermont, and someone in the Champ or ND1 instead

A 14 team league, to spread out the quality even farther and reduce the overall level of our league, and duck out of the higher-level European competition. Hooray - let's make our players even less equipped to take the leap to international level! Woo!

I can see exactly why the clubs might want it, but I'm frankly baffled as to why the RFU could possibly view this as a good idea.

Puja

[Banquo]

Loving the irony that the European comp the PRL fought so hard for may now be the fall guy.

Those big meanie foreigners keep beating us, after all the hard work we out into screwing them over! It's not fair, and if they don't start letting us win, we're going to take our ball away.

Personally I'll start supporting Clermont, and someone in the Champ or ND1 instead

A 14 team league, to spread out the quality even farther and reduce the overall level of our league, and duck out of the higher-level European competition. Hooray - let's make our players even less equipped to take the leap to international level! Woo!

I can see exactly why the clubs might want it, but I'm frankly baffled as to why the RFU could possibly view this as a good idea.

Puja

this

[Cameo]

Whatever the merits of the changes themselves, the shakeup of the old Heineken Cup was horribly missold with a wierd level of cheerleading from the media. I thought this was meant to make it more attractive with broadcasters and sponsors falling over themselves even over the Challenge Cup. Instead, three years down the line, the PRL is apparently bored.

I'm not sure on whether the Champions Cup has got worse or better. I follow it less but I dont know if that's cos I dont have Sky anymore and there is one less Scottish team to bother watching on a dodgy stream or because the new mix of clubs/format is any less interesting. It might just be me getting old and jaded and more parochial in mainly watching the Scottish teamz

[Timbo]

Saracens apparently up for sale...

Something has to be done to make the top tier of professional rugby in this country more secure. Too much short term thinking.

Off the top of my head, a 10 team ringfenced league with participants reviewed every 3 seasons, minimum 20 EQP in every 23, unlimited/greatly increased academy credits...moving towards some sort of central contracting for top English players. Maybe.

[Oakboy]

2 divisions seems so logical theoretically but can, say, a 20 club basis ever be viable financially? I can't see it. Before any further discussion, the total number of clubs that would be viable has to be established. Can a case be made for more than 14?

[Puja]

2 divisions seems so logical theoretically but can, say, a 20 club basis ever be viable financially? I can't see it. Before any further discussion, the total number of clubs that would be viable has to be established. Can a case be made for more than 14?

You've got the 12 currently and Bristol, Leeds, Ealing, Bedford, Pirates, Doncaster would all be in solid positions to look at stepping up to fully pro if the RFU money increased. Don't know if there's another 2 though - maybe start with a 10 and an 8 and then expand?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Makes for grim reading:

[Digby]

Makes for grim reading:

Only if you're worried about them surviving, which one would if one were to scrap relegation. Otherwise they're taking a risk that's their specific choice, and it's on them to make that a success or not

[Mellsblue]

2 divisions seems so logical theoretically but can, say, a 20 club basis ever be viable financially? I can't see it. Before any further discussion, the total number of clubs that would be viable has to be established. Can a case be made for more than 14?

You've got the 12 currently and Bristol, Leeds, Ealing, Bedford, Pirates, Doncaster would all be in solid positions to look at stepping up to fully pro if the RFU money increased. Don't know if there's another 2 though - maybe start with a 10 and an 8 and then expand?

Puja

I’d like to think you could include Nottingham. They were attracting decent (for the Champ) crowds when they played at Notts County’s ground and there are numerous rugby clubs in and around the city. The attendances have tailed off since they moved to Lady Bay Sports Ground, on which they have a temporary stand, a marquee for hospitality and an old cricket pavillion with player facilities and bar. I’m not completely sure of the setup as it’s currently used by numerous different sports, but I believe they do own the land or at least have a very significant holding, and they are building a permanent stand this summer.

[Banquo]

Saracens apparently up for sale...

Something has to be done to make the top tier of professional rugby in this country more secure. Too much short term thinking.

Off the top of my head, a 10 team ringfenced league with participants reviewed every 3 seasons, minimum 20 EQP in every 23, unlimited/greatly increased academy credits...moving towards some sort of central contracting for top English players. Maybe.

You are right something has to be done; players wages is the obvious problem. Need a much smaller professional game, unless we want to keep indulging the fantasy that crowds can be grown enough to sustain more than about 10 teams.

[fivepointer]

2 divisions seems so logical theoretically but can, say, a 20 club basis ever be viable financially? I can't see it. Before any further discussion, the total number of clubs that would be viable has to be established. Can a case be made for more than 14?

You've got the 12 currently and Bristol, Leeds, Ealing, Bedford, Pirates, Doncaster would all be in solid positions to look at stepping up to fully pro if the RFU money increased. Don't know if there's another 2 though - maybe start with a 10 and an 8 and then expand?

Puja

Here's the nub. The pro game cannot stand without RFU support.

The Premiership has ONE team turning a profit. Everyone else is losing money and i'd be very surprised if they can turn that around. The pro game is never going to attract big attendances. You might get the odd big turnout at Tigers, Wasps, or for an event at Twickenham, but outside of that you are looking at around A 10,000 average. TV money is unlikely to increase as, again, there are only so many people willing to watch the game.
The Championship currently has one club (Bristol) capable of stepping up thanks to a wealthy benefactor and a strong support base. Ealing get gates under 2,000. Premiership contenders? Not any time soon i'd say. Some of the Championship are part timers and several of the clubs have indicated no ambition to gain promotion. Jersey cannot move up even if they were good enough.
Ringfencing just recognises the fact that there is a natural cutoff between clubs capable of hosting Premiership rugby and the rest.
i reckon there are 20 clubs who can, or potentially could, support Premiership rugby. There should be enough money in the game to fund this, though there would have to be some adjustments in salary caps and RFU funding. Get them into two 10 team leagues and please dont abandon European rugby.

[Oakboy]

How far has the attractiveness to fans of 'regions' been investigated? Idealistic in concept, perhaps, but, as a first step, a 4-division competition over 2 weeks might be worth considering instead of some club/cup alternatives. Pick the 4 top DORs and let them choose regional EQP 23s. Out of the hat 1st round with a final at Twickenham.

[Digby]

Here's the nub. The pro game cannot stand without RFU support.

And the RFU can't stand without support from the clubs. Why the point keeps being made in isolation that the clubs can't stand without the support of their union I don't know.

The questions are how concerned do we need to be about the losses especially given we currently have a relegation, how concerned about the varying sums of revenue raised by club if looking for a competitive product (we're looking at some clubs raising around 300% of what the likes of Newcastle, Irish and Worcester raise), and how concerned about the % spend of revenues on wages? Really the root cause of problem for the clubs is the % of revenue spend on wages. Oddly Exeter have (or had) the lowest % spend on wages, and Worcester the highest, and we know where they figure in the list of those posting profit and loss.

It'd be easy to just take a swipe at Worcester and Irish, but really Sarries spend more than is ideal and they were already carrying more debt, and I doubt Newcastle aren't raising their debt levels for all the praise they're getting under Deano this season. So why do we praise Newcastle on the one hand when that's based on their taking a risk of spending more, and then suddenly take a more critical bent when considering the game's finances?

One of the big issues will be whether what the next TV deal looks like, we often hear the next deal will not be as good but the speculation doesn't always match the reality. We also don't know how much rugby might increase their FTA offering, and what it anything that'll do to general interest in the game.

[Which Tyler]

The other points about "Championship level clubs can't go fully pro with only 2,000 spectators" are that it is hoped/expected that improving the quality, "meaning" and exposure to the matches would increase crowds and sponsorship deals (along with TV money).
On top of which, no-one is suggesting that they'd have to go from a squad salary of £0.5M to £7.5M, or even close to it.
If 2,000 fans, no TV deal, no exposure and barely any central funding pays for the existing squads, Double the cash available should improve the squads, let alone an 8-fold increase.

As for losses at the top, those clubs up for sale really shouldn't be making that level of loss. All clubs (yes, even Leicester or Exeter) are run essentially as rich men's play things, and a tax write-off. None are going to come close to breaking even absent further earning (conferences, shops, car parks, whatever). I would much prefer more clubs to approach break-even, but that's they're own fault for repeatedly voting to increase the salary cap (50% in the last 2 years, 100% in the last 5). No-one is forcing them to vote for that, no-one is forcing them to then spend up to it (and they all get close enough, even the ones who claim not to, you don't make a loss of £4M if you're not spending any money*).
I'd particularly like an element of financial fair play brought in, where salaries and club incomes are related to each other, though that does unfairly scew things in favour of the current "haves" vs the "have-nots".


I absolutely do think we can sustain 20 fully professional clubs in this country. Some will need a bit of charity for 2-6 years to get there, but we can do it.
We can't if they're all trying to spend £7.5M.

If they each spend what they can afford, with a decent structure to the game (and I'll allow some security for investment), then there's no particular reason why our 20th level club can't afford a full time squad averaging around £40k per player.
Hell, if you smooth the existing TV and RFU payments over 20 clubs instead of 12-14, you'd get around £3.5-4M per club, which gets you a squad salary averaging around £80k**, with enough left over to spend on admin before you sell a single shirt or ticket.

Of course it would be more likely than any money smoothing would still benefit the Prem, but if we call it a 3:2 split, that's still £3M to each of the Champ10, with £4.5M to each of the Prem10, which would represent a 6-fold increase for the Champ clubs. A 2:1 split would out at £5M : £3.5M.


* Currently, each club receives around £5.5-6M from BT+RFU***. If you receive £6M and lose £4M, you're spending £10M + anything you sell to supporters or earn from ancillary businesses and sponsorship. If you then claim to be spending half the cap, you'd be either lying or incompetent.
** Assuming a squad somewhere around 40 players.
*** £45-46M per year from BT; £28-29M per year from RFU both figures quote as "at least". The BT figure could be half again that from the way the article is worded. Previous contract was 4 years, new one for 6, an 80% increase. I've taken the 89% increase of the total and divided by 6; but it could be an 80% increase per year.

[Mellsblue]

If 2,000 fans, no TV deal, no exposure and barely any central funding pays for the existing squads

Except they don’t. Bedford used to operate at a £80k loss, courtesy of the chief execs pockets, but as the quality of the league increased that led to relegation battles. The wage bill has shot up this year, hence we are now third top rather than third bottom, due to more charity from the local wealthy. This is all from the second largest attendances, by a decent distance, in the league.

[fivepointer]

lets throw another option into the mix. How about a British & Irish League?

"Instead, imagine a bolder, rebranded alternative – and the marketeers can have this for free – called the Big League. The ideal format will always be a matter of debate but two tiers of 12, determined by end-of-season placings from recent years, would be my preference. In year one the top league might look something like this: Leinster, Munster, Scarlets, Glasgow, Ulster, Ospreys, Saracens, Exeter, Wasps, Leicester, Bath and Newcastle.
Two teams would be relegated at the end of each season, with two promoted. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the supporting cast initially included Northampton, Gloucester, Harlequins, Sale Sharks, Worcester, Bristol, London Irish, Edinburgh, Cardiff Blues, Dragons and Connacht, along with a 12th franchise. The involvement of teams from South Africa, Italy and the United States might be a short-term necessity for contractual reasons but, longer term, there should be scope for ambitious, well-run sides from closer to home. Killing any prospect of professional rugby union ever taking hold in, say, North Wales, Yorkshire or Cornwall would be silly.

And the small print? A realistic, mutually beneficial salary cap, incentives for playing homegrown players and a guaranteed 22 regular season games per year, with the existing Anglo-Welsh Cup replaced by a predominantly U23 tournament (with no more than half a dozen over-age players permitted in a matchday 23) staged as double-headers with better-promoted women’s fixtures on international weekends. Summer weekends would feature a thriving club sevens league across Britain and Ireland, with the aim of unearthing fresh talent for future Olympic squads. Clubs would be buzzing, communities engaged and the game’s grassroots re-fertilised"

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... big-league

[Puja]

Eh. I'm not absolutely averse to a B&I league, but it wouldn't solve the issue of the number of games for players (unless we're talking scrapping the ERC) and there would need to be a ridiculous amount of compromise to get PRC and the Pro 12 clubs to work together. Plus you'd still have the issue of 13 clubs with Prem shares, no realistic route for promotion of ambitious clubs, limiting our top-flight clubs to 6 (at least initially)... it feels like I don't know which questions that idea is the solution for.

Puja

[Digby]

I'd rather read Rowan's posts than have a B&I league (maybe not all of them). And really given we already play them in Europe it seems a waste of time.

The only area of interest would be watching the convoluted justifications from whatever 6-8 AP sides were left in existence as to why they deserved more money than their Irish, Welsh and Scottish counterparts. Having only jut argued for distribution to be by the club I suspect they'd suddenly take on a whole new approach if presented the idea of sharing with the various Pro 14 tribes.

[Mellsblue]

I don’t see the rationale of wanting to ditch Europe just to reform Europe without the French.

[Which Tyler]

If 2,000 fans, no TV deal, no exposure and barely any central funding pays for the existing squads

Except they don’t. Bedford used to operate at a £80k loss, courtesy of the chief execs pockets, but as the quality of the league increased that led to relegation battles. The wage bill has shot up this year, hence we are now third top rather than third bottom, due to more charity from the local wealthy. This is all from the second largest attendances, by a decent distance, in the league.

A] Just like the entirety of the Prem you mean? (Well, with a zero knocked off)
B] I'm pretty sure that £80k is less money than the additional £3M you'd be getting.


As for the B&I league - what problems is it attempting to solve? I don't see how ring-fence the top 12 English clubs helps us prevent ring fencing of the top 2 English clubs, or how playing 22-4 matches instead of 22-4 matches helps the fixture congestion. I'm not even particularly sure how having an unsustainable salary cap helps the unsustainable salary cap problem either.

[Digby]

I don’t see the rationale of wanting to ditch Europe just to reform Europe without the French.

That's the country in Europe I'd be most keen to play against, whether at club or national level.