What is a race?

[gthedog]

Travellers?
English?
Muslims?

[rowan]

There are four major ethnic groups in the world - black African, European, East Asian and Austroloid. East Asians reached the Americas toward the end of the last Ice Age, when sea levels were lower, exposing a land bridge between Siberia and Alaska. Austroloids originated in Southern Asia and reached Australia much earlier during the last Ice Age, perhaps 40 millenia ago, though they required the use of canoes.

The agricultural revolution several thousand years ago led to dramatic population growth. Europeans moved into South Asia and hybridized with the Austroloid race (giving rise to the Indo-European language family as well as the Caste system in India). East Asians moved south into South East Asia, hybridized with the native Austroloids, and spread into both the Pacific & Indian Oceans (Polynesians and the natives of Madagascar are a result of this). The San Bushmen of southern Africa do not belong to any of these groups. They number less than 100,000 today.

The question of when and how the four major ethnic groups developed remains unanswered, though an increasingly popular - and controversial- theory is that this was the result of hybridization with other species of primitive man on the Eurasian continent. DNA testing suggests +Europeans are on average between 2 & 3% Neanderthal, while East Asians and Austroloid are up to 5 or 6 per cent Denisovian. Black Africans and Bushmen did not migrate to Eurasia and therefore did not hybridize with other species of primitive man.

[Lizard]

Where the fuck did you get that from? 1910 Encyclopædia Britannica? There is more genetic diversity amongst sub-Saharan Africans than amongst the rest of humankind put together. To lump them in as a single "race" equivalent to a so-called "European" or "East Asian" race is meaningless.

[morepork]

Scandanavians have the most homogenous haplotype on earth. These people are the natural full backs of the world. You can not pass them.

What the sweet jesus is an Austroliod? We're all African baby.

[zer0]

Race
noun
1. A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, etc. to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.
"Hill started from pole position and won the race"
Synonyms: contest, competition

HTH.

[UKHamlet]

There really aren't any races. It might be splitting hairs, but there are only ethnic subdivisions of the human race. The criteria used for defining ethnicity is whatever you want it to be. Legal definitions are the only ones that matter though.

[Zhivago]

There aren't even human subspecies and races a step below that... so...

[Galfon]

' a group of people who share similar and distinct physical characteristics'..is one description, and is more phenotype than genotype so could never be resolved due to interpretation.
Rowan's summary is I believe based on genetic mapping and is true in simplistic terms, which means on those terms..
- melanesians e.g. fijians, are east asians like vietnamese, as are south american indians in chile...
-north africans/ middle east groups are a mix of europeans & africans. and not distinct.
Gypsies were originally dark haired/skinned from northern india so not sure about white skinned/red hair traveller groups from the british isles..it looks very complex.
There is less human genetic variation outside africa than in sub-saharan africa showing what a tough gig it was getting out and surviving early on.

[rowan]

- melanesians e.g. fijians, are east asians like vietnamese, as are south american indians in chile...
-north africans/ middle east groups are a mix of europeans & africans. and not distinct.
Gypsies were originally dark haired/skinned from northern india so not sure about white skinned/red hair traveller groups from the british isles..it looks very complex.

Melanesians are predominantly Austroloid, with only minor East Asian DNA. Polynesians migrated out of South East Asia much later and are about 50/50.

North Africans, like the poeple of the Middle East and South Asia, would be more a mix of European and Austroloid (who originated in Southern Asia but migrated throughout the tropical regions, from the Pacific to the Atlantic).

Gypsies were from India and also Central Asia and other parts. Europeans thought they were Egyptians, hence their name. They are now more commonly referred to as Roma (which includes Central Asians). Hollywood star Yul Brynner described himself as being of Central Asian 'gypsy' origins, I believe.

[Galfon]

North Africans more Australoid than African ?
Interesting..as would be the migration route.
Sure I read somewhere there was Scandinavian type n Tunisian mDNA passed down the female line.

[UGagain]

Australoid,
he was an Australoid.
Happier than you and me.

[rowan]

As mentioned, Austroloid originated in South Asia and migrated along the sub-tropical belt from the Pacific to the Atlantic. Middle Easterners and North Africans would be predominantly European with some Austroloid component.

The people of the Indian sub-continent are considered predominantly Austroloid with some European component. The Rig Veda sagas recall the arrival of Europeans in South Asia around 1500BC. They gave India its name, which means 'river', Meanwhile, Iran is named after them.

Polynesians are an East Asian-Austroloid hybrid, as are the natives of Madagascar. Melanesians are predominantly Austroloid with some East Asian component.

[rowan]

Sure I read somewhere there was Scandinavian type n Tunisian mDNA passed down the female line.

Not sure about that, but the Eastern Germanic 'Vandal' tribe were settled there for a long time. They migrated down to Spain, where Andalucia (originally 'Vandalucia)' is named after them, then onto Tunisia and fought a number of lengthy wars against the Byzantines (the Eastern Roman Empire based in Constantinople, today named Istanbul). They were eventually defeated.

[Galfon]

There was also some gene flow the other way after the last ice-age with Berber gene-type turning up in Scandinavian Sami hunter/gatherers as well as Danube peoples.
The extinct Gothic language is interesting being Germanic/Indo-European with some similarity to Old English..

Have we established who or what determines separate races for legal matters, and does anyone have a list ?

[morepork]

As mentioned, Austroloid originated in South Asia and migrated along the sub-tropical belt from the Pacific to the Atlantic. Middle Easterners and North Africans would be predominantly European with some Austroloid component.

The people of the Indian sub-continent are considered predominantly Austroloid with some European component. The Rig Veda sagas recall the arrival of Europeans in South Asia around 1500BC. They gave India its name, which means 'river', Meanwhile, Iran is named after them.

Polynesians are an East Asian-Austroloid hybrid, as are the natives of Madagascar. Melanesians are predominantly Austroloid with some East Asian component.

Is Australoid, negroid, mongoloid, etc an anthropological construct based on genetics and physical characteristic, plus linguistics, etc, or is it just appearance? If the latter, it seems decidedly old school......but I know very little about it.

[Sandydragon]

As mentioned, Austroloid originated in South Asia and migrated along the sub-tropical belt from the Pacific to the Atlantic. Middle Easterners and North Africans would be predominantly European with some Austroloid component.

The people of the Indian sub-continent are considered predominantly Austroloid with some European component. The Rig Veda sagas recall the arrival of Europeans in South Asia around 1500BC. They gave India its name, which means 'river', Meanwhile, Iran is named after them.

Polynesians are an East Asian-Austroloid hybrid, as are the natives of Madagascar. Melanesians are predominantly Austroloid with some East Asian component.

Is Australoid, negroid, mongoloid, etc an anthropological construct based on genetics and physical characteristic, plus linguistics, etc, or is it just appearance? If the latter, it seems decidedly old school......but I know very little about it.

My understanding is that the primary means of differentiation was appearance. Ethnic differences became more commonly used later, although that seems to be more to define intrarace groupings, for want of a better term.

Interestingly, I never knew that an EU Regulation formally opposes the term race in describing people, in preference for ethnic group.

[rowan]

Is Australoid, negroid, mongoloid, etc an anthropological construct based on genetics and physical characteristic, plus linguistics, etc, or is it just appearance? If the latter, it seems decidedly old school......but I know very little about it.

Genetics and physical characteristis, yes. Lunguistics, no.

[Sandydragon]

There was also some gene flow the other way after the last ice-age with Berber gene-type turning up in Scandinavian Sami hunter/gatherers as well as Danube peoples.
The extinct Gothic language is interesting being Germanic/Indo-European with some similarity to Old English..

Have we established who or what determines separate races for legal matters, and does anyone have a list ?

An extract from the UK equalities act 2010

9Race

(1)Race includes—

(a)colour;

(b)nationality;

(c)ethnic or national origins.

(2)In relation to the protected characteristic of race—

(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a person of a particular racial group;

(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same racial group.

(3)A racial group is a group of persons defined by reference to race; and a reference to a person's racial group is a reference to a racial group into which the person falls.

(4)The fact that a racial group comprises two or more distinct racial groups does not prevent it from constituting a particular racial group.

(5)A Minister of the Crown may by order—

(a)amend this section so as to provide for caste to be an aspect of race;

(b)amend this Act so as to provide for an exception to a provision of this Act to apply, or not to apply, to caste or to apply, or not to apply, to caste in specified circumstances.

(6)The power under section 207(4)(b), in its application to subsection (5), includes power to amend this Act.

The term race is used to describe a far wider range of attributes than many might expect it to.

[rowan]

Thanks for the legal definition. It's not a genetic or anthropological definition. Nationalities cannot possibly be regarded as races. Can anyone define the American race, or the Brazilian, the Russian or the Australian, just as a few examples. Even in Europe now, Britain, France, Germany . . . they're all multi-cultural today.

[morepork]

Is Australoid, negroid, mongoloid, etc an anthropological construct based on genetics and physical characteristic, plus linguistics, etc, or is it just appearance? If the latter, it seems decidedly old school......but I know very little about it.

Genetics and physical characteristis, yes. Lunguistics, no.

Ta. What about agriculture? I'm thinking of Taro taking the wind out of Hyerdahl's Kontiki. I 'suppose that's technically genetics though.

[Sandydragon]

Thanks for the legal definition. It's not a genetic or anthropological definition. Nationalities cannot possibly be regarded as races. Can anyone define the American race, or the Brazilian, the Russian or the Australian, just as a few examples. Even in Europe now, Britain, France, Germany . . . they're all multi-cultural today.

Agreed. I think the nclusion of nationality is a lazy way of ncorporating xenophobia into the offence.

[rowan]

Ta. What about agriculture? I'm thinking of Taro taking the wind out of Hyerdahl's Kontiki. I 'suppose that's technically genetics though.

Agriculture, like linguistics, is a useful means of helping to establish ethnicity, but is obviously not the definitive factor. For example, the South American sweet potato featured in pan-Pacific trade routes long before the Europeans showed up and was known by the Maori as the 'kumera.' Coincidentally it was known to th Inca as the 'Cumer.' Quite a coincidence. Hyerdahl got it backwards, however, and thought the Polynesians had entered the Pacific from South America. The actually entered from the other side - Asia - but may have reached South America at some point or else encountered native Americans on one of the eastern Pacific Islands they did reach - such as Easter Island. Remember, claims that the Vikings had reached Canada were widely dismissed and ridiculed until archaeological evidence confirmed the fact in 1960.

[rowan]

Agreed. I think the nclusion of nationality is a lazy way of ncorporating xenophobia into the offence.


Indeed, the lines have become blurred within the legal system. We have long been told that anti-Semitism is racism. Whilst unquestionably deplorable, 'racism' is a misnomer and has increasingly been used to blackmail opponents of Israeli war crimes into silence. The Semites are actually a linguistic group dominated by Arabs. Yes, the Arabs are Semites too. Semites are neither a race nor exclusive to the Jews. Meanwhile, Jews are the followers of a particular religion, not an ethnic group. Anybody can actually become a Jew, and anybody can actually cease to be one. The original founders of the Jewith faith were ethnically akin to Arabs and emerged from the Arabian peninsula alongside them several thousand years ago. Those who migrated back to Palestine with the Zionist movement were decidedly more European than Middle Eastern in terms fo their ethnicity. More recently, many Jews of Middle Eastern and African ethnicity (Mizrahi) have been flooding into Israel, changing the racial demographics significantly.

[Sandydragon]

Agreed. I think the nclusion of nationality is a lazy way of ncorporating xenophobia into the offence.


Indeed, the lines have become blurred within the legal system. We have long been told that anti-Semitism is racism. Whilst unquestionably deplorable, 'racism' is a misnomer and has increasingly been used to blackmail opponents of Israeli war crimes into silence. The Semites are actually a linguistic group dominated by Arabs. Yes, the Arabs are Semites too. Semites are neither a race nor exclusive to the Jews. Meanwhile, Jews are the followers of a particular religion, not an ethnic group. Anybody can actually become a Jew, and anybody can actually cease to be one. The original founders of the Jewith faith were ethnically akin to Arabs and emerged from the Arabian peninsula alongside them several thousand years ago. Those who migrated back to Palestine with the Zionist movement were decidedly more European than Middle Eastern in terms fo their ethnicity. More recently, many Jews of Middle Eastern and African ethnicity (Mizrahi) have been flooding into Israel, changing the racial demographics significantly.

Which is why the term ethnic group is used more today to denote discrimination. Using pure anthropological distinctions is too simple, what about a half caste for instance? Trying to prove that there is a country now with pure racial lines is impossible. Aside from the most remote of tribes, there has been too much integration over the years.

[Sandydragon]

Agreed. I think the nclusion of nationality is a lazy way of ncorporating xenophobia into the offence.


Indeed, the lines have become blurred within the legal system. We have long been told that anti-Semitism is racism. Whilst unquestionably deplorable, 'racism' is a misnomer and has increasingly been used to blackmail opponents of Israeli war crimes into silence. The Semites are actually a linguistic group dominated by Arabs. Yes, the Arabs are Semites too. Semites are neither a race nor exclusive to the Jews. Meanwhile, Jews are the followers of a particular religion, not an ethnic group. Anybody can actually become a Jew, and anybody can actually cease to be one. The original founders of the Jewith faith were ethnically akin to Arabs and emerged from the Arabian peninsula alongside them several thousand years ago. Those who migrated back to Palestine with the Zionist movement were decidedly more European than Middle Eastern in terms fo their ethnicity. More recently, many Jews of Middle Eastern and African ethnicity (Mizrahi) have been flooding into Israel, changing the racial demographics significantly.

I'd correct your statement slightly on the use of racism to stop a debate, it's far wider than that. Any debate on immigration was effectively silenced by calling the initiator racist, regardless of the issue raised. If you don't wholeheartedly support Israel then your racist, if you don't wholeheartedly support the Palestinians the you are also racist. It's easy term to throw around and attempt to gain the moral high ground. Pathetic in all cases.