Good but not quite good enough XV

[Scrumhead]

Just picking up on the chat re. Henry Trinder in the SA Tour thread made me think that there is a ground of players (25 years old or older) who are increasingly unlikely to be picked at test level.

My XV would be:

1. R. Harrison
2. Cruse
3. Cooper-Woolley
4. Slater
5. Green
6. Gibson
7. Welch
8. Wray
9. S. Harrison
10. Mills
11. Bassett
12. Atkinson
13. Trinder
14. Woodburn
15. Hammersley

OK, Mills at 10 is a touch tenuous, but I reckon that XV could definitely take on some test teams.

If you include players with a handful of caps who are unlikely to get any more you could easily add Armand, Kvesic, Freddie Burns, Eastmond and Wade.

[Puja]

You could have Billy Burns in at 10? Addison and Haley would also have suited until recently (and I'm not sure they'll trouble Ireland selection). In fact, half the Sale EQP fit into this category - very solid pros, but never international quality.

Pennell's only 140s away from the list as well.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Ben Moon, Mike Haywood, Nick Schonert, Graham Kitchener, George Merrick, Dave Ewers, Gary Graham and Josh Beaumont wouldnt be a bad pack either.

[Mellsblue]

12. Atkinson

WUM alert.

[Banquo]

Ben Moon, Mike Haywood, Nick Schonert, Graham Kitchener, George Merrick, Dave Ewers, Gary Graham and Josh Beaumont wouldnt be a bad pack either.

always liked Ben Moon.

[Puja]

Ben Moon, Mike Haywood, Nick Schonert, Graham Kitchener, George Merrick, Dave Ewers, Gary Graham and Josh Beaumont wouldnt be a bad pack either.

Was Beaumont never capped?

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Nope. He’s only played Saxons or Baa Baas games.

[Stom]

Prop is the place I think Aus would love our 5th choices...

Just think:

Mako
Marler
Genge
Mullan
Hepburn
Harrison
Boyce...

Cole
Sinckler
Williams
Cooper-woolley
Schonert
Hill
Collier
Brookes

[Scrumhead]

How about the ‘Never Again XV’

Some of these are probably, rather than definitely never again.

1. Mullan
2. T. Youngs
3. Brookes
4. Parling
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Simpson
10. F. Burns
11. Wade
12. Barritt
13. Twelvetrees
14. Ashton
15. Goode

Quite a good side apart from the centres.

I could have gone for a few more too. Collier, Webber, T. Harrison, Eastmond, Sharples and Pennell spring to mind.

[Puja]

I tried doing a Worst Capped since 2012 (or a "Why did we pick them XV"), but it's actually suprisingly difficult. Centres galore, but I'm missing quite a few positions.

??
??
Collier
Botha
??
??
Harrison
??

Wigglesworth
Francis
??
Turner-Hall
Twelvetrees
??
??

Anyone tell me the obvious names I've missed? I don't want to include people like Goode and Wood, as they had their good moments and good qualities (and we didn't have huge numbers of other options at the time).

Puja

[16th man]

What this exercise is doing is highlighting our major issue: We have lots of good players, but a lack of really excellent ones. There's a proper glut of players who are a 6 or 7 / 10 at international level, but too few 9 and 10 / 10.

Puja's struggle to name a XV of never agains shows this too, but also shows up the lack of real experimentation done in the last 6 or so years. We've not taken a chance on anyone who's talents might have strengthened the side, instead focusing on trying to stick to players with no weaknesses, even if they have no outstanding positives.

[Raggs]

36 is far from the worst, try Tomkins.

[Puja]

36 is far from the worst, try Tomkins.

I had thought he was pre 2012, but google says you're right. Good call, although we're not short of mistakes at centre.

Puja

[Digby]

Hartley a shoe-in for a why did we pick them team. And even Harltey is a dodgy selection for this team next to the mighty Sam Burgess

By the time he was picked Dowson was well past his best, and Tom Johnson never seemed to adjust to the pace either. If one were adamant there are valid reasons to pick Hartley then other than seeking help you might want to pick Webber or Gray at hooker,

[Hucks]

Worst capped - Phil dowson? He'd have been early Lancaster.

Tuilagi and / or mike brown on the wing specifically too...

You seem to have missed out Burgess - presumably because like the rest of us you've just tried so hard to forget?!

Lee Dickson, myler....let's not forget that nick Easter actually played in the last World Cup....dark times...


Good but not good enough would certainly include gaskell, rob Miller and McIntyre at wasps. First two have had their moments and been passed by. McIntyre never gets a mention - admittedly in the most competitive of English positions right now - but even on this board people are naming mullan in the list of England looseheads options and McIntyre is clear first choice ahead of him at wasps now.


Devoto will probably end up in this category, and ultimately I think slade will too. He'll get a handful of caps but never become established.

If Joel Hodgson looked more like an athlete / pin-up and played for a traditionally more vaunted club he'd get a lot more chat too.

[Scrumhead]

What this exercise is doing is highlighting our major issue: We have lots of good players, but a lack of really excellent ones. There's a proper glut of players who are a 6 or 7 / 10 at international level, but too few 9 and 10 / 10.

Puja's struggle to name a XV of never agains shows this too, but also shows up the lack of real experimentation done in the last 6 or so years. We've not taken a chance on anyone who's talents might have strengthened the side, instead focusing on trying to stick to players with no weaknesses, even if they have no outstanding positives.

OK, but apart from NZ, which countries have world class players in volume?

I agree that proportionally, the size of our player-base should produce more top players, but rugby isn’t as culturally embedded in England as it is in NZ and our grass-roots coaching isn’t as strong.

I think we could have been more experimental and a bit more daring, but with a couple of exceptions (more caps for Cipriani, Wade, Kvesic etc.),it’s not like we’ve not ignored a huge amount of deserving players.

There are a few players I think should be in the England set-up - Ben Curry being an obvious example, but he’s 20 and has plenty of time on his side. That’s why my original XV was for players who are 25 or older.

[Puja]

Hartley a shoe-in for a why did we pick them team. And even Harltey is a dodgy selection for this team next to the mighty Sam Burgess

Worst capped - Phil dowson? He'd have been early Lancaster.

Tuilagi and / or mike brown on the wing specifically too...

You seem to have missed out Burgess - presumably because like the rest of us you've just tried so hard to forget?!

Unpopular opinion - I don't think [redacted] was that terrible on the pitch. Even with the sh*tshow at the RWC, it was Barritt out of position at 13 who made the mistakes that cost us against Wales. I mean, he wasn't good, and he'd've been a heck of a lot better if he'd swallowed the ego and worked at being a 6 rather than making the RWC at centre, but as a straight forward crash-ball merchant, I don't know he was any worse than Burrell would've been.

It's the fact that he screwed Bath and Ford so royally by running home to Mummy at the first sign of inconvenience after they'd put so much time and effort into him that annoyed me, far more than his England performances.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. It was the behaviour/lack of humility that I found really distasteful.

All things considered, his performances on the pitch weren’t actually that terrible.

[Mellsblue]

Hartley a shoe-in for a why did we pick them team. And even Harltey is a dodgy selection for this team next to the mighty Sam Burgess

Worst capped - Phil dowson? He'd have been early Lancaster.

Tuilagi and / or mike brown on the wing specifically too...

You seem to have missed out Burgess - presumably because like the rest of us you've just tried so hard to forget?!

Unpopular opinion - I don't think [redacted] was that terrible on the pitch.

Puja

This is worthy of a ban, surely.

Who MODs the MOD?

[Banquo]

What this exercise is doing is highlighting our major issue: We have lots of good players, but a lack of really excellent ones.

aye, been saying it for years...

[Tom Moore]

Hartley a shoe-in for a why did we pick them team. And even Harltey is a dodgy selection for this team next to the mighty Sam Burgess

Worst capped - Phil dowson? He'd have been early Lancaster.

Tuilagi and / or mike brown on the wing specifically too...

You seem to have missed out Burgess - presumably because like the rest of us you've just tried so hard to forget?!

Unpopular opinion - I don't think [redacted] was that terrible on the pitch. Even with the sh*tshow at the RWC, it was Barritt out of position at 13 who made the mistakes that cost us against Wales. I mean, he wasn't good, and he'd've been a heck of a lot better if he'd swallowed the ego and worked at being a 6 rather than making the RWC at centre, but as a straight forward crash-ball merchant, I don't know he was any worse than Burrell would've been.

It's the fact that he screwed Bath and Ford so royally by running home to Mummy at the first sign of inconvenience after they'd put so much time and effort into him that annoyed me, far more than his England performances.

Puja

This. Performances ok, attitude appalling. You've just played in a team that's been booted out of it's own World Cup. You're going to get criticised. Suck it up Princess.

[Which Tyler]

Yup
Performances were... Okay, and showed some promise.
Ego prevented that promise from delivering

[Digby]

Hartley a shoe-in for a why did we pick them team. And even Harltey is a dodgy selection for this team next to the mighty Sam Burgess

Worst capped - Phil dowson? He'd have been early Lancaster.

Tuilagi and / or mike brown on the wing specifically too...

You seem to have missed out Burgess - presumably because like the rest of us you've just tried so hard to forget?!

Unpopular opinion - I don't think [redacted] was that terrible on the pitch. Even with the sh*tshow at the RWC, it was Barritt out of position at 13 who made the mistakes that cost us against Wales. I mean, he wasn't good, and he'd've been a heck of a lot better if he'd swallowed the ego and worked at being a 6 rather than making the RWC at centre, but as a straight forward crash-ball merchant, I don't know he was any worse than Burrell would've been.

It's the fact that he screwed Bath and Ford so royally by running home to Mummy at the first sign of inconvenience after they'd put so much time and effort into him that annoyed me, far more than his England performances.

Puja

This. Performances ok, attitude appalling. You've just played in a team that's been booted out of it's own World Cup. You're going to get criticised. Suck it up Princess.

His performances at times raised themselves to the standard of bare adequate. But we shouldn't overlook some of his positional play and decision making was rank bad, actually god awful, and then he was exposed for a lack of agility and speed such he couldn't recover too. And he made some howlers at both 6 and 12, maybe he'd have improved had he stayed, maybe he never planned to stay

[Banquo]

Unpopular opinion - I don't think [redacted] was that terrible on the pitch. Even with the sh*tshow at the RWC, it was Barritt out of position at 13 who made the mistakes that cost us against Wales. I mean, he wasn't good, and he'd've been a heck of a lot better if he'd swallowed the ego and worked at being a 6 rather than making the RWC at centre, but as a straight forward crash-ball merchant, I don't know he was any worse than Burrell would've been.

It's the fact that he screwed Bath and Ford so royally by running home to Mummy at the first sign of inconvenience after they'd put so much time and effort into him that annoyed me, far more than his England performances.

Puja

This. Performances ok, attitude appalling. You've just played in a team that's been booted out of it's own World Cup. You're going to get criticised. Suck it up Princess.

His performances at times raised themselves to the standard of bare adequate. But we shouldn't overlook some of his positional play and decision making was rank bad, actually god awful, and then he was exposed for a lack of agility and speed such he couldn't recover too. And he made some howlers at both 6 and 12, maybe he'd have improved had he stayed, maybe he never planned to stay

Indeed

[Lizard]

Just picking up on the chat re. Henry Trinder in the SA Tour thread made me think that there is a ground of players (25 years old or older) who are increasingly unlikely to be picked at test level.

My XV would be:

1. R. Harrison
2. Cruse
3. Cooper-Woolley
4. Slater
5. Green
6. Gibson
7. Welch
8. Wray
9. S. Harrison
10. Mills
11. Bassett
12. Atkinson
13. Trinder
14. Woodburn
15. Hammersley

OK, Mills at 10 is a touch tenuous, but I reckon that XV could definitely take on some test teams.

If you include players with a handful of caps who are unlikely to get any more you could easily add Armand, Kvesic, Freddie Burns, Eastmond and Wade.

The irony of this thread is that the equivalent XV for New Zealand would have included Brad Shields.