1st Test Ratings

[Raggs]

I prefer to rewatch (and in this case, ruck marks too), before doing ratings. I know that I miss a lot when first viewing, and single good/bad actions can colour my entire opinion of a player unfairly.

[Renniks]

Just for the lols, here are Mr S Jones’s:
Daly - 6
May - 8
Slade - 6
Farrel - 7......he must’ve found it painful as England collapsed around him, but he kept himself together for the late rally*
Brown - 7
Ford - 5
Youngs - 6

Mako - 6
George - 8
Sinckler - 5
Itoje - 5
Isiekwe - 4
Robshaw - 4
Billy - 4
Curry - 4


*it seems the capt is not to blame for the team falling to pieces but rather praised as a beacon of dependability

Ford being 2 marks below Farrell and Brown is very strange
And George getting an 8 is baffling

But How Curry got a 4 has to be the worst rating I've seen in a long time!

[Banquo]

It was definitely Slade’s best game to date. You’re right, though, the Ford - Farrell - Slade combo isn’t balanced.

....and yet, we were buggered time after time out wide, with (mostly Mikey) wingers coming in and leaving big holes outside (as had SA in fairness). Something was awry tween 12/13 and whoever was outside them; suspect they were caught between blitz and drift, and because they were both retreating and the ball was coming out quickly they were essentially flat footed.

[Digby]

We weren't caught between blitz and drift from indecision, on repeat basis we decided to run up and then realised it was going wide too late and drift, and I assume it comes from an intent to bring line speed whenever possible rather than consider what's actually happening.

I wonder who the defence captains were, I assume not Curry in the pack just based on exp, and I'd think similar for Slade, which might mean in addition to being captain and kicker Faz was calling the backs defence which is a lot to ponder on as the game progresses

[Banquo]

We weren't caught between blitz and drift from indecision, on repeat basis we decided to run up and then realised it was going wide too late and drift, and I assume it comes from an intent to bring line speed whenever possible rather than consider what's actually happening.

I wonder who the defence captains were, I assume not Curry in the pack just based on exp, and I'd think similar for Slade, which might mean in addition to being captain and kicker Faz was calling the backs defence which is a lot to ponder on as the game progresses

call it what you want, but they were caught out, again suspect because they hadn't time to call or think.

[Digby]

We weren't caught between blitz and drift from indecision, on repeat basis we decided to run up and then realised it .was going wide too late and drift, and I assume it comes from an intent to bring line speed whenever possible rather than consider what's actually happening.

I wonder who the defence captains were, I assume not Curry in the pack just based on exp, and I'd think similar for Slade, which might mean in addition to being captain and kicker Faz was calling the backs defence which is a lot to ponder on as the game progresses

call it what you want, but they were caught out, again suspect because they hadn't time to call or think.

We're zealot like in wanting to blitz, it's less a decision and more an impulse at this point, I'd settle for subconscious decision making.

If Launch is fit that will in fairness both speed up the blitz which will help, and still better he'll like do better in contact than we saw yesterday which would hide some of the worst of our limitations

[Oakboy]

The only rating I can be bothered with is Jones - 3 (and I am feeling generous).

[Mellsblue]

The only rating I can be bothered with is Jones - 3 (and I am feeling generous).

That’s the motto for Team Dors sorted.

[Spiffy]

We weren't caught between blitz and drift from indecision, on repeat basis we decided to run up and then realised it was going wide too late and drift, and I assume it comes from an intent to bring line speed whenever possible rather than consider what's actually happening.

I wonder who the defence captains were, I assume not Curry in the pack just based on exp, and I'd think similar for Slade, which might mean in addition to being captain and kicker Faz was calling the backs defence which is a lot to ponder on as the game progresses

I think perhaps too much is made of the role of defensive organizer in the modern game. I don't believe you can hyperorganize defence in the heat of a fast game. Things happen too quickly. Just pick players who can play what's in front of them based on their eperience, know what to do, and trust them do it. A good coach will cover this in training anyway, so that players will react semi-automatically without deep analysis of any situation (no time), or without some other bloke telling them what to do (even if they could hear him.) A lot of this depends on selecting players in the positions that they play in regularly, week after week, so that they are well primed with the shape of things from that slot. In this respect, playing a club 10, say, as an international 12, would not be ideal (or a 13 as a 12; or a 15 as an 11; or a lock as a 6; or a 6 as a lock etc...)

[morepork]

Brad Shields is going up the fucking Mekong on Eddies patrol boat with room only for farrell mike brown and some forwards held together by string and morphine. Johnny May will swim beside like an autistic otter. Daly will be chopped and changed between mechanic and cook. Colonel Eddie Kurtz will adhere to his vision with extreme prejudice as the whole patrol invariably gets herded into its own 22. Every man has got a breaking point. You and I have one. Eddie Jones has reached his. And very obviously, he has gone insane.

[Stom]

OK, I thought this may be the right place considering the debate over pack vs halfbacks...

There were two England players, I thought, who displayed fatigue for the entire second half and encapsulated why England lost that test. And, yes, it really does look like fatigue is the no.1 reason.

Maro Itoje
Poor Maro was trying to influence that game so damn hard. He pushed his body on and on through the pain, but it just would not come off. Almost every act he tried to pull off for almost an hour of that test went wrong. But you know what? He kept at it, and in the final 10 he came back strongly.

Ben Youngs
Ben Youngs looked like the little fat kid again. God, he was blowing from minute 2. And unlike Itoje, he was nowhere to be seen. Not only was Youngs late to every ruck, he was out of position in defense and unable to read the game. To cap it all off, when we did finally get the ball and look to play, he consistently made the wrong decisions.

We've had discussions on halfback play vs the pack, and most of us agree that you can't really blame the halfbacks when the pack is so utterly on the back foot. Well, I think Ben Youngs has to take a fair share of blame. Ford, one poor kick aside, I don't see what else he could have done. His involvement was cut in half by the performance of his half back partner. Slade, after an encouraging first half, never actually saw the ball in the 2nd.

Other notes:
Mike Brown. Absolute stupidity to pick him on the wing. Was done several times for no reason other than the fact he's not a wing. But he was one of the few players who constantly made right decisions.
Jonny May. Possibly our best player. One of the few to actually cope with the fatigue. Bar that stupid little sideways run.

[Oakboy]

Itoje is simply out of sorts and was before this game, IMO.

Youngs is just a poor international SH, though arguably the best available according to some.

Ford and Slade both did all they could in attack. Slade defended well. Ford did not (because he can't?).

Brown was simply hung out to dry by Jones along with Daly. It is quite possible that reversing their positional selection would have reversed the result. If Jones could yank Isiekwe in the 1st half why did he not swap Daly and Brown? Keeping the status quo was just ignorant pig-headedness.

[Raggs]

Itoje was superb for Sarries.

Isiekwe was harming the team and himself, and is perhaps 5th choice lock. Daly is clearly being viewed as a serious option at fullback, and is going to need that experience and game time to prove it. He over kicked a couple, likely due to a lack of familiarity with altitude, though he dialed it in by the end. The non-grounding of the bouncing ball is bad, but he'll learn from that.

[Mikey Brown]

I think there’s a lot to what Stom said. Looking back at it Youngs ponderous play (after Curry’s break late one for example) weren’t even the worst bits of play, as I thought at the time, there were noticeable patches when he simply wasn’t there.

Maybe a wider camera would show something enlightening.

On Daly it’s totally understandable that he needs some game time to get to grips with 15 again, I’ve thought he could be world class there for a long time, but now? In SA? This far from the World Cup? Jones is rattled or just can’t decide what it is he wants to do.

[Raggs]

It's not that far from the world cup... and why not now? Better now, and see if he can adapt within 3 games, rather than leaving it till closer to the rwc before finding it doesn't work.

[Mikey Brown]

I meant that the RWC isn’t that far away. There were plenty of times I was playing like shite and we actually had some decent m, fit wingers. That would strike me as a better time to move a wing to fullback.

Maybe Watson’s conversion got in the way. Maybe the option of my good self able to cover him from wing was the key? But just how bad would it need to get before making that change?

[fivepointer]

Youngs was indeed ponderous, yet somehow managed to remain on the field for over 70 minutes.
Why can Jones act so decisively over Isiekwe but leave Spencer on the bench until the last few minutes?

[Beasties]

Because he's painted himself into a corner with his pig-headed SH selection policy. Now he simply won't trust anyone else because they're inexperienced. It's almost like we shouldn't even be raising this as an issue at this stage.

[Banquo]

Itoje was superb for Sarries.

Isiekwe was harming the team and himself, and is perhaps 5th choice lock. Daly is clearly being viewed as a serious option at fullback, and is going to need that experience and game time to prove it. He over kicked a couple, likely due to a lack of familiarity with altitude, though he dialed it in by the end. The non-grounding of the bouncing ball is bad, but he'll learn from that.

I'm not really sure what else people are now looking for in Itoje at international level; he is excellent in the lineout, excellent at restarts, does his scrummaging job well, and puts himself about in the loose; his discipline I can fault, but not the effort he puts in. If anything, he needs to pace himself and pick and choose- he's trying to make up for some other collective failings imo. He stands out in club rugby in a dominant side, but its much harder to do that in international rugby full stop, let alone in a struggling team.

On Daly. fair enough giving him a go at 15, though I think wing is where he should be, but why both select Brown and then persist; that helped Daly not a jot.

[Oakboy]

Because he's painted himself into a corner with his pig-headed SH selection policy. Now he simply won't trust anyone else because they're inexperienced. It's almost like we shouldn't even be raising this as an issue at this stage.

This!

Developing the principle, could Jones have done more to try different centre and back row options. Maybe he might have done had he not been riding the crest of a wave on the unbeaten run. I'd like to be generous in that area but he's 'Mr Experience' - the one who knows everything and was appointed because we had to have a guy who had done it all at international level. Why did he not do more to tackle the three problem areas much earlier even if it meant losing? Let's face it, the 'winning habit' theory has done SFA looking at our current state and the same issues remain that bothered many 15+ matches back.

[Raggs]

It doesn't help Daly having a slow wing, but Daly needs to be able to cope with that.

As I said before, during the 6n, I think Eddie is deliberately trying to limit which players he uses, to keep it within his likely RWC squad whenever possible, hence Lawes at 6 etc.

[Banquo]

Because he's painted himself into a corner with his pig-headed SH selection policy. Now he simply won't trust anyone else because they're inexperienced. It's almost like we shouldn't even be raising this as an issue at this stage.

This!

Developing the principle, could Jones have done more to try different centre and back row options. Maybe he might have done had he not been riding the crest of a wave on the unbeaten run. I'd like to be generous in that area but he's 'Mr Experience' - the one who knows everything and was appointed because we had to have a guy who had done it all at international level. Why did he not do more to tackle the three problem areas much earlier even if it meant losing? Let's face it, the 'winning habit' theory has done SFA looking at our current state and the same issues remain that bothered many 15+ matches back.

More than three opportunity/problem areas for me, but the most urgent is and was and will be back row. Across the board our decision making and discipline are pony as well.

[Banquo]

It doesn't help Daly having a slow wing, but Daly needs to be able to cope with that.

As I said before, during the 6n, I think Eddie is deliberately trying to limit which players he uses, to keep it within his likely RWC squad whenever possible, hence Lawes at 6 etc.

why? We shouldn't have to select slow wings at international level.

On your theory on the squad, right or wrong, its dumb.

[Oakboy]

Across the board our decision making and discipline are pony as well.

Do you think that is because the players are incapable of adapting or because coaching restrictions stifle them? Also, how much of it is down to captaincy?

For example, going back to Itoje, he was touted as a long-term captaincy candidate and he seems to be an intelligent man. Yet, he's one of the worst examples of absolutely stupid penalty conceding.


As an aside, is there an official pack leader?

[Raggs]

It doesn't help Daly having a slow wing, but Daly needs to be able to cope with that.

As I said before, during the 6n, I think Eddie is deliberately trying to limit which players he uses, to keep it within his likely RWC squad whenever possible, hence Lawes at 6 etc.

why? We shouldn't have to select slow wings at international level.

On your theory on the squad, right or wrong, its dumb.

We shouldn't, but Brown is probably intended to be a fullback, but for now, the need to expose Daly at 15 is greater. For back 3, Jones is seemingly looking at Brown, Daly, Watson, May, Nowell (and maybe Cips, but I'll believe it when I see it). So if he can get 3 of those on the pitch, getting more game time, more experience, more fitness etc, then he's going to do it.

The same thing looked to be true in the 6N, when he kept putting Lawes at 6. Basically preferring to get gametime in likely rwc squad members, than even bother with someone who's simply not in his plans even as a contender (Armand).