What is a race?

[rowan]

I have to admit I am struggling to see the relevance of that criticism (irony context aside). Think this through. Anthropological studies hypothesise the existence of a novel branch of evolution, the members of which are long gone. Molecular biology and bioinformatics provide hard data supporting this, and each complements the other. What's the problem here? A contrasting example would be Thor Hyerdahl's theory of the populating of Polynesia citing the spread of Taro as a staple crop. He hypothesised Polynesians originated in South America based on Taro but subsequent analyses of Taro mitochondrial DNA showed this crop originated in Asia. Resolution through two independent points of observation.

The South American sweet potato has been prevalent in the Pacific Islands for about 1000 years, and is known to the Maori as the kumera, which closely resembles the word cumal which is still used by the Quechua natives of the Andes region. So there may well have been contact between Polynesians and South American natives long before Europeans arrived on the scene, and given the former were the ones who sailed their double-hulled canoes all over the Pacific, it's certainly possible they reached South America at some point but did not settle there, as there is no trace of their DNA on that continent.

But Thor was an ass who clung to his theories long after they had been disproved because his ego was more important to him than discovery of the truth.

[morepork]

I have to admit I am struggling to see the relevance of that criticism (irony context aside). Think this through. Anthropological studies hypothesise the existence of a novel branch of evolution, the members of which are long gone. Molecular biology and bioinformatics provide hard data supporting this, and each complements the other. What's the problem here? A contrasting example would be Thor Hyerdahl's theory of the populating of Polynesia citing the spread of Taro as a staple crop. He hypothesised Polynesians originated in South America based on Taro but subsequent analyses of Taro mitochondrial DNA showed this crop originated in Asia. Resolution through two independent points of observation.

The South American sweet potato has been prevalent in the Pacific Islands for about 1000 years, and is known to the Maori as the kumera, which closely resembles the word cumal which is still used by the Quechua natives of the Andes region. So there may well have been contact between Polynesians and South American natives long before Europeans arrived on the scene, and given the former were the ones who sailed their double-hulled canoes all over the Pacific, it's certainly possible they reached South America at some point but did not settle there, as there is no trace of their DNA on that continent.

But Thor was an ass who clung to his theories long after they had been disproved because his ego was more important to him than discovery of the truth.

Yes, I know what kumara is, I'm Kiwi. The point is that the mitochondrial genome of Taro shows more homology with Asian nightshade species than it does South American species. Here's a little bioinformatics Top Tip: mitochondria are exclusively maternal in origin which halves the potential variance presented by sexual recombination. I didn't cut and paste that by the way.

Science bitch. Embrace it.

[Donny osmond]

I have to admit I am struggling to see the relevance of that criticism (irony context aside). Think this through. Anthropological studies hypothesise the existence of a novel branch of evolution, the members of which are long gone. Molecular biology and bioinformatics provide hard data supporting this, and each complements the other. What's the problem here? A contrasting example would be Thor Hyerdahl's theory of the populating of Polynesia citing the spread of Taro as a staple crop. He hypothesised Polynesians originated in South America based on Taro but subsequent analyses of Taro mitochondrial DNA showed this crop originated in Asia. Resolution through two independent points of observation.

The South American sweet potato has been prevalent in the Pacific Islands for about 1000 years, and is known to the Maori as the kumera, which closely resembles the word cumal which is still used by the Quechua natives of the Andes region. So there may well have been contact between Polynesians and South American natives long before Europeans arrived on the scene, and given the former were the ones who sailed their double-hulled canoes all over the Pacific, it's certainly possible they reached South America at some point but did not settle there, as there is no trace of their DNA on that continent.

But Thor was an ass who clung to his theories long after they had been disproved because his ego was more important to him than discovery of the truth.

Yes, I know what kumara is, I'm Kiwi. The point is that the mitochondrial genome of Taro shows more homology with Asian nightshade species than it does South American species. Here's a little bioinformatics Top Tip: mitochondria are exclusively maternal in origin which halves the potential variance presented by sexual recombination. I didn't cut and paste that by the way.

Science bitch. Embrace it.

Best post of 2017

[rowan]

The South American sweet potato has been prevalent in the Pacific Islands for about 1000 years, and is known to the Maori as the kumera, which closely resembles the word cumal which is still used by the Quechua natives of the Andes region. So there may well have been contact between Polynesians and South American natives long before Europeans arrived on the scene, and given the former were the ones who sailed their double-hulled canoes all over the Pacific, it's certainly possible they reached South America at some point but did not settle there, as there is no trace of their DNA on that continent.

What's really amazing, and which we still have relatively little knowledge about, is how peoples ethnically akin to the Polynesians and regarded as part of the same language family, crossed the Indian Ocean from South East Asia two millenia ago and reached Madagascar. & although they are ethnically more African than Polynesian today (Arab traders are thought to have first introduced African natives to the island), is it any coincidence that they too have taken to rugby more than soccer? Madagascar is the third biggest rugby-playing nation in Africa (narrowly behind Zimbabwe) and is one of the very few which lists rugby (not soccer) as its national sport.

[morepork]

Here's a little mitochondrial DNA blast from the past for you:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199379/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19535740

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25880430

http://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-li ... ns-1.12710

[Which Tyler]

Yes, I know what kumara is, I'm Kiwi. The point is that the mitochondrial genome of Taro shows more homology with Asian nightshade species than it does South American species. Here's a little bioinformatics Top Tip: mitochondria are exclusively maternal in origin which halves the potential variance presented by sexual recombination. I didn't cut and paste that by the way.

Science bitch. Embrace it.

[rowan]

Here's a little mitochondrial DNA blast from the past for you:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199379/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19535740

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25880430

http://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-li ... ns-1.12710

Thanks, I read the first one and it was quite interesting, though not a lot different to what I read in the books of Dr Peter Bellwood and others about quarter of a century ago, only significantly more jargonistic.

[morepork]

Here's a little mitochondrial DNA blast from the past for you:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199379/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19535740

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25880430

http://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-li ... ns-1.12710

Thanks, I read the first one and it was quite interesting, though not a lot different to what I read in the books of Dr Peter Bellwood and others about quarter of a century ago, only significantly more jargonistic.

You don't publish jargon, you publish data. What you call jargon is in fact valid nomenclature. The data in those papers supports the linguistic hypothesis. Sequence analysis technology a quarter of a century ago wasn't up to it, but now that it is, Dr. Bellwoods hypotheses hold more water. Why do you resist so?

[rowan]

Here's a little mitochondrial DNA blast from the past for you:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199379/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19535740

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25880430

http://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-li ... ns-1.12710

Thanks, I read the first one and it was quite interesting, though not a lot different to what I read in the books of Dr Peter Bellwood and others about quarter of a century ago, only significantly more jargonistic.

You don't publish jargon, you publish data. What you call jargon is in fact valid nomenclature. The data in those papers supports the linguistic hypothesis. Sequence analysis technology a quarter of a century ago wasn't up to it, but now that it is, Dr. Bellwoods hypotheses hold more water. Why do you resist so?

I don't resist. Just described it as jargonistic because there was lots of technical stuff. I mean, it wouldn't exactly be suitable for publication in a magazine or newspaper, would it? I'm a layman, not an expert, but I've nonetheless read heaps about it over the past few decades, and nobody was more delighted than me when DNA testing completely confirmed most of the conclusions Dr Bellwood et al had come to decades earlier. For one thing, it means I didn't waste my time reading all those weighty anthropology books from cover to cover during my youth.

[morepork]

I don't know where to start.....

[Donny osmond]

I don't know where to start.....

Well, he seems to have spent the last number of years reading up on middle eastern history, middle eastern politics, cuban history, cuban politics, current global geo-politics, domestic and international law in a number of different countries, and also human biology and the life and works of Dr Peter Bellwood.

Try introducing a new variable and see what happens.

[rowan]

I don't know where to start.....

Well, he seems to have spent the last number of years reading up on middle eastern history, middle eastern politics, cuban history, cuban politics, current global geo-politics, domestic and international law in a number of different countries, and also human biology and the life and works of Dr Peter Bellwood.

Try introducing a new variable and see what happens.

Sure, I'm a bookworm. I studied literature at university. But if anything I tend to regard my fields of interest as a little confined - literary novels, various aspects of history and international politics. I don't really go beyond that much. I did read a wider variety of material during my youth, in particular adventure novels (Wilbur Smith was a favourite) and sports books (esp. rugby). But those don't interest me at all any more, haven't done for probably twenty years or so. I'm not a scientist of any description and don't presume to be.

[rowan]

It's about 3600 kms from Easter Island to Chile, which is less than the distance from Tahiti to Easter Island, NZ or Hawaii - voyages the Polynesians were known to have made multiple times. But there are no islands in between Easter Island and Chile, as there are between Tahiti and those other locations. Nonetheless, the sheer improbability of Polynesians locating such far flung islands as Easter Island suggests they must have had a penchant for exploration over very long distances, possibly in pursuit of birds. On Easter Island they would have become familiar with the sight of birds from the South American mainland. Also, strong westward winds, including El Nino, could have carried them there very quickly. In the 1830s a group of escaped Tasmanian prisoners apparently got caught up in a ferocious westerly and reached South America from Tasmania in 48 days. That's over 10,000kms, almost three times as far.

So what might have happened if the Easter Islanders had reached South America? Surely they would have been killed by the first native peoples they encountered. & if friendly relations were somehow established, might this have resulted in the spread of disease? I don't think there is anything on the records of a sudden decrease in population on Easter Island, but then we know little about their pre-European history as their oral tradition is not as complete as other Pacific Islanders.' No explanation exists for the stone statues or absence of trees, for example. But it may be that the elders and high priests understood what a great threat this discovery was to their people and way of life. If the inhabitants of a land "without limits" ever found out about their islands, surely they would overrun them. So perhaps they forbade further expeditions, and withal any mention of that place again, so that it was forgotten. Perhaps they became so terrified they burnt all the canoes and ordered all the trees cut down to prevent any more being built. Or perhaps that order came from another, larger island - such as Tahiti.

[zer0]

More importantly, what is a nation? And can black people swim?

[rowan]

But there are no islands in between Easter Island and Chile, as there are between Tahiti and those other locations.

Actually, I did a little more reading about this last night and it turns out there are some very small islands a little to the north. Sala y Gomez Islands lie just over 320kms to the north-east of Easter Island, and were known to the Polynesians as Motu Motiro Hiva, meaning Islet on the way to Hive. Though too small for permanent settlement, they were visited frequently by the Easter Islanders, and this is the furthest east the Pacific Islanders are known for certain to have travelled. But from there it is a distance of under 2,500 kms directly eastward to the equally tiny Desventuradas Islands some 850km off the coast of Chile. There is no evidence of Polynesian visits to these islands, however; nor anything in Easter Island oral tradition.

[Mellsblue]

More importantly, what is a nation? And can black people swim?

No idea, but they can jump.

[rowan]

Yes, that comment pretty much summed up the predominant mentality on the politics forum. Well done.

[morepork]

You are way off the mark there Rowan. Be careful.

[kk67]

Plenty of different races..... not that many psychopaths.
We need to cut the psychopaths out of decision making positions.