More on Syria

[morepork]

SPACE FORCE


Bitches.

[Galfon]

Victories ? Heroes ?
Pretty hollow given the hundreds of thousands of innocent lives lost, many in brutal manner.
Others will claim victory over ISIS largely on the back of Kurdish resolve and sacrifice on the ground, with air and other support.The Sykes-Picot border is still intact, but Syria is now split into 3 areas of control - Russia, US and Turkey (NATO ally but apparently more chummy with Russia & Iran). Having relied also on Iranian interventions, they have gained influence across to the Med.now.
It's like claiming outright victory in the Balkans, it can never be thus without some sort of catastrophe.

[Digby]

SPACE FORCE


Bitches.

I have in mind Trump looking like a muppet, pigs in space and all that

[rowan]

I don't think it was a hollow victory at all. There is no denying the tragedy involved, and the responsibility for that lies with the US and its allies (particularly in the Gulf region) for creating the conflict. But it was a very meaningful victory over the warmongering empire, which has been destroying nation after nation in the Middle East, leading to the deaths of millions, in its attempts to bring the entire region under its control. This won't have stopped them in their tracks, as we can see with the ongoing carnage in Yemen, but the US can no longer assume these regime change operations are always going to be a formality (human carnage notwithstanding) and will certainly think twice in future where the Russians might become involved. So that is indeed a heroic victory for Moscow, as it may well defer such senseless wars in the future. & yes, America and Turkey still maintain a presence in northern Syria, in violation of international law, but Damascus is already making plans to reclaim that territory, and from what I've been reading in the local press, the Turks don't quite seem prepared to go to war over it. & if you think they are there to actually help the local civilian population, you really don't have any idea what's going on. Possibly it will end up in a stalemate like the Golan Heights, which Israel has been occupying illegally for half a century, but which are currently being patrolled by Russian forces on the proviso Iranian troops keep their distance.

[Digby]

Has anyone responded to Putin's request for other nations to stump up for the rebuild costs in Syria?

Okay the USA are going to want Iran to get out, but it was largely the Russians blowing the place up and I don't know we'd be keen paying for their repairs. That said I've no idea how much Russia handed over for the rebuild in Iraq, if they have been digging deep we'll have to reciprocate

[rowan]

The Russians should not have to pay for the cost of rebuilding Syria as it was they who liberated the nation from the US backed rebels/terrorists, and America itself which created much of the carnage - despite having no legal authority whatsoever to be there. Regrettably the tactic of the US proxies was to hole up with the local civilian population held hostage. The Americans themselves conceded the impossibility of defeating them without considerable loss of civilian life, and their own efforts in Raqqa made little if any effort to avoid that scenario - leading to catastrophic consequences which have been compared to genocide. So it is the US and the Gulf States which should foot the bill. Not quite sure why Putin suggested the EU do so, despite the limited involvement of the UK and France (again illegal).

[Galfon]

I don't think many from outside the region believe Turkey rolled in for any reason other than putting a stop to the developing Kurdish zone along the border from the Euphrates to Afrin.It has always championed a 'buffer zone' ...there is a clash of cultures and ideology meaning all Kurds or affiliates are potential terrorists, wheras to others the YPG et al helped defeat the other terrorists.Russia gave a free hand in Afrin and US cut a deal in Manbij, so it's watch this space for that place, up to the river and possibly beyond to Kobane and even Raqqa..(.if your GL is serious.)
He now has a job on his hands with his economy at home and there are plenty of other players watching moves further east.It seems to have stalled for now.
In terms of who pays, that's a challenge and a half but will be linked to how the spoils are carved up.

[rowan]

GL's pride and ego are more important than the economy and everybody's life savings. If America won't hand over the preacher, Turkey won't hand over the pastor. So there!

[Galfon]

Trump's pulling US troops out of N Syria after the 'defeat of ISIS' in Syria.This gives a green light to Turkey's anti-Kurd plans for Manbij and then east of Euphrates into Rojava.The SDF that helped defeat ISIS on the ground has YPG elements that Mr. E considers 'terrorists' therefore fair game.Looks like recipe for anything between major instability and another war in the region with Turkey(NATO & Qatari ally) the main protagonist, and the risk of a re-surgent re-modelled IS.That would be worst case scenario - has Trump done a deal, or has he just walked away ? Looks iffy.

[Galfon]

Kick-off predictably in Manbij...'IS' suicide bomb kills 15 or more including US soldiers, reportedly.
Delay to US departure now, or precursor to Turkey's planned anti-Kurdish take-over of the city?
ding-ding..

[BeJimmieHeeks]

Remember the weapons of mass destruction that Hussein said he had and everyone thought he had until they could blame not finding any on Bush?

Many said they went to Syria......

The middle east is a mess and BHO is a wuss and they are taking advantage of it.

Remember BHOs red line in the sand over a year ago and they the gassing last spring?

The middle east is only going to get worse.....

fos

[Galfon]

Nasty..

[Sandydragon]

Nasty..

Yep. The region needs some stabilisation and the Kurds needed to have avoided another fucking over like they historically get.

Well done Trump.

[Digby]

For Trump to suddenly act as he has is on Trump and stains the USA. But even Trump has a point when he talks about EU countries failing to accept responsibility for taking ISIS fighters back and for not investing enough into military assistance in the region

[morepork]

For Trump to suddenly act as he has is on Trump and stains the USA. But even Trump has a point when he talks about EU countries failing to accept responsibility for taking ISIS fighters back and for not investing enough into military assistance in the region

Do you really believe any of that logic has filtered into his thinking? One phone call from a dictator and we’re on. Easiest genocide Eva. Obviously he will welcome the inevitable Kurdish refugees with open arms. It’s fucking cold and ignorant. No, he didn’t start it, but can you think of a less appropriate individual to be attempting to mediate this situation?

Blair, Bush, Cheney...are you cunts proud of your work yet?

[Digby]

For Trump to suddenly act as he has is on Trump and stains the USA. But even Trump has a point when he talks about EU countries failing to accept responsibility for taking ISIS fighters back and for not investing enough into military assistance in the region

Do you really believe any of that logic has filtered into his thinking? One phone call from a dictator and we’re on. Easiest genocide Eva. Obviously he will welcome the inevitable Kurdish refugees with open arms. It’s fucking cold and ignorant. No, he didn’t start it, but can you think of a less appropriate individual to be attempting to mediate this situation?

Blair, Bush, Cheney...are you cunts proud of your work yet?

I think he knows the USA is paying more than many leading EU nations, and he does have a point about that. I don't see the UK rushing to deploy troops there, nor France, nor Germany.. bascically we're all happy to slate what is a shocking decision without doing anything that inconveniences us

[Donny osmond]

Did I see something about him opening ahotal I turkey, or is that some online bullshit I’ve fallen for?

[Digby]

Did I see something about him opening ahotal I turkey, or is that some online bullshit I’ve fallen for?

Possibly. There are the Trump Towers, but I don't know if there's a hotel in them, and they're not his, he's just paid for the use of his name (a decision I believe the actual owners now bigly regret)

[morepork]

For Trump to suddenly act as he has is on Trump and stains the USA. But even Trump has a point when he talks about EU countries failing to accept responsibility for taking ISIS fighters back and for not investing enough into military assistance in the region

Do you really believe any of that logic has filtered into his thinking? One phone call from a dictator and we’re on. Easiest genocide Eva. Obviously he will welcome the inevitable Kurdish refugees with open arms. It’s fucking cold and ignorant. No, he didn’t start it, but can you think of a less appropriate individual to be attempting to mediate this situation?

Blair, Bush, Cheney...are you cunts proud of your work yet?

I think he knows the USA is paying more than many leading EU nations, and he does have a point about that. I don't see the UK rushing to deploy troops there, nor France, nor Germany.. bascically we're all happy to slate what is a shocking decision without doing anything that inconveniences us

Why should the rest of the world be compelled to adjust to the whims of one oaf's social media mewlings?

[Digby]

Do you really believe any of that logic has filtered into his thinking? One phone call from a dictator and we’re on. Easiest genocide Eva. Obviously he will welcome the inevitable Kurdish refugees with open arms. It’s fucking cold and ignorant. No, he didn’t start it, but can you think of a less appropriate individual to be attempting to mediate this situation?

Blair, Bush, Cheney...are you cunts proud of your work yet?

I think he knows the USA is paying more than many leading EU nations, and he does have a point about that. I don't see the UK rushing to deploy troops there, nor France, nor Germany.. bascically we're all happy to slate what is a shocking decision without doing anything that inconveniences us

Why should the rest of the world be compelled to adjust to the whims of one oaf's social media mewlings?

The rest of the (western) world shouldn't be so willing to allow the USA to police so much of the world, though that would involve spending money which they're all too happy to avoid.

[Galfon]

Cue mass jail-breaks and the consequences that will bring.Many will be looking to return home..

[Digby]

Cue mass jail-breaks and the consequences that will bring.Many will be looking to return home..

Again not to excuse the idiotic move from the fat orange wanker, but we should never have left them there to begin with. We (Europe in this instance) were happy they were the problem of someone else, and that might now hurt us

[Puja]

Fighting on the Syrian border with Turkey has prevented the SDF from securing IS detention camps in areas under its control, senior official Redur Xelil said in a televised statement on Saturday.

"Guarding IS prisons is no longer a priority. Whoever cares about the secure detention of the prisoners they are welcome to come and find a solution."

Instead, he said, SDF forces would "move to protect our cities and our people".

Completely understandable fuck you from the Kurds. Poor sods - with a sane leader in the White House, those prisoners would've been a bargaining chip for American protection and a potential acknowledgement of a Kurdish state, but they're unlucky enough to be dealing with one who genuinely doesn't understand the complexities of this, or indeed any, situation.

Puja

[Galfon]

We've not heard much from the Syrian regime yet..wouldn't have thought they would just things unravel without asserting their position in a number of ways..Russia being the obvious & control of the skies near the border.
Unless the deals are already done..

[Galfon]

Idlib Province now - the latest tangled web that will prove sticky for millions in the area..
Opening the Turkey border to EU is going to ruffle - it won't be as easy this time round for sure, sorry pawns in the fuddled manouverings..'Kin mess.