England vs New Zealand

[Mellsblue]

I thought Mercer was quality. Classy player. I’d love to see Wilson - Curry - Mercer.

However, Jones has said Curry is a probably no....so Underhill in the 7 shirt.

[Scrumhead]

Drop Shields for Mercer (with Wilson going to 6). If Curry's not fit, then bring in Underhill. I'd love to have Ford at 10, but barring a fortuitous toe stubbing, keep the backline the same and see whether we get second half Ben Te'o for the full game now that he's got some minutes under his belt.

However, I foresee the same team, but with Rhodes for Curry.

Puja

We share the same hopes and the same fears ...

I’d start Moon and Underhill (if Curry isn’t fit - which seems likely).

The only real alternative to more of Te’o and Slade is switching back to Ford and Farrell which I don’t see happening.

Maybe Shields will raise his game against his mates?

[Oakboy]

Maybe Shields will raise his game against his mates?

The trouble is that 'will' must be replaced by 'can' and the answer is 'no'. I just think he's the worst journeyman import ever - over-rated simply because he comes from NZ. Armand and Rhodes are better players by a distance.

[p/d]

I hope to have a go doing ruck marks (not sure when I'll have the time though, and the games don't last long on youtube). I wasn't that impressed with Mercer though. I mean he didn't **** the bed or anything, but equally I didn't think "Wow!". Would be happy to see him getting more chances, just not sure if a start against the ABs is the best bet.

Yep, agree regards Mercer. Keep him on the bench.

he might tinker with the front row and look at playing Lawes or Itoje in the back row. 12/13 pairing will be under discussion as will bringing Brown back into the back 3.

I just don't see him discarding Shields ............. sadly

[Scrumhead]

Maybe Shields will raise his game against his mates?

The trouble is that 'will' must be replaced by 'can' and the answer is 'no'. I just think he's the worst journeyman import ever - over-rated simply because he comes from NZ. Armand and Rhodes are better players by a distance.

I’ve seen him look much, much better than this in SR, so I’m prepared to give him some rope BUT, I’ve also been one of the most voiciferous critics of his performance at the weekend.

I’m willing to give him a little time to adapt and show what he is capable of but if he starts getting picked ahead of Robshaw or Wilson when everyone’s fit, I’ll be very disappointed.

Overall, I agree that he’s been given a leg up purely because he’s a Kiwi which I really dislike. At least the Zimbabwean and the South African you namechecked have paid their dues in the NH.

[fivepointer]

If Shields was that good then surely NZ would have shown a bit of interest in him? After all he is a product of the NZ rugby system and has been under the noses of the selectors for years.
Maybe Eddie sees a "test match animal" in him. Maybe his appearances so far for England and Wasps are completely unrepresentative of his ability. Maybe he will come good.
We'll see.

[Timbo]

Other players to look away from a suitable standard in the backrow include Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Lawes, Itoje, Shields, Underhill, Hughes and I'm sure I'm missing some other obvious examples. So being good enough isn't much of a factor whereas unlike most of that list Ben comes with a lot of potential

The single most fundamental prerequisite as a test match backrower is physicality on the tackle line and ruck. None of those players you’ve listed lack that. Ben at this stage of his career does(apparently, cos I probably only watch about 5 Sale games a season).

[Timbo]

Eddie reckons that Tom Curry probably out for the Autumn. He did only name check Wilson and Underhill as possible replacements in the 7 jersey.

[Puja]

Eddie reckons that Tom Curry probably out for the Autumn. He did only name check Wilson and Underhill as possible replacements in the 7 jersey.

Oh gods, please let that be true. I couldn't bear a Rhodes and Shields double act on the flanks.

I would take a Shields, Wilson, Mercer back row.

I hope to have a go doing ruck marks (not sure when I'll have the time though, and the games don't last long on youtube). I wasn't that impressed with Mercer though. I mean he didn't **** the bed or anything, but equally I didn't think "Wow!". Would be happy to see him getting more chances, just not sure if a start against the ABs is the best bet.

Yep, agree regards Mercer. Keep him on the bench.

My calls for Mercer are not based so much around the fact that he excelled against South Africa, but that he looked very comfortable very quickly. Plus 8 is a specialist position, especially when your scrum is under pressure and, if we continue doing the quick hook and pick routine that we trialled last weekend, that will suit Mercer down to the ground.

Last, and definitely not least, if we pick Mercer to start, then we don't pick Shields. If we don't pick Mercer, then it's either Shields or Rhodes.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

[Scrumhead]

$hit news for Curry, but I think he’s already done enough (before the weekend) to be a serious contender for the 7 shirt when he’s fit. In other words, back for the 6 Nations.

Shields, Wilson and Mercer worked well enough for pretty much half of the game so I imagine Eddie will be comfortable enough going with that. I’d sooner have Underhill in the side though.

[Lizard]

I can’t see Eddie missing the chance to start Shields and tell him that these are the bastards who Hansen thinks are better than you - go and prove him wrong.

He must also be tempted to get Tuilagi out there to run hard and straight at whatever rookie mid-field combo the roulette ball lands on this time.

[Lizard]

I just think he's the worst journeyman import ever

*Hot take klaxon.*

I presume you mean for England, not all-time? (Isaac Boss, anyone?)

This probably deserves its own thread.

I would say that “journeyman” excludes experimental league converts (Shontayne Hape? Lesley Vainikolo?) So that would leave the likes of Riki Flutey, Teimama Harrison, Mark van Ginsbergen and Thomas Waldrom as allegedly more worthy than Shields. And that’s just the Kiwis.

[Puja]

I just think he's the worst journeyman import ever

*Hot take klaxon.*

I presume you mean for England, not all-time? (Isaac Boss, anyone?)

This probably deserves its own thread.

I would say that “journeyman” excludes experimental league converts (Shontayne Hape? Lesley Vainikolo?) So that would leave the likes of Riki Flutey, Teimama Harrison, Mark van Ginsbergen and Thomas Waldrom as allegedly more worthy than Shields. And that’s just the Kiwis.

Flutey, Harrison, and Waldrom did have their good moments for England. Van Gisbergen was utterly dire, but his international career lasted 18 minutes, so I'm not sure he really counts.

Puja

[Lizard]

It’s going back a bit but look up Martin Donnelly.

[zer0]

He must also be tempted to get Tuilagi out there to run hard and straight at whatever rookie mid-field combo the roulette ball lands on this time.

Rookie midfield combo? It's 99% likely to be Goodhue at centre with one of Crotty or Williams at second five, and ALB on the bench.

[Scrumhead]

I just think he's the worst journeyman import ever

*Hot take klaxon.*

I presume you mean for England, not all-time? (Isaac Boss, anyone?)

This probably deserves its own thread.

I would say that “journeyman” excludes experimental league converts (Shontayne Hape? Lesley Vainikolo?) So that would leave the likes of Riki Flutey, Teimama Harrison, Mark van Ginsbergen and Thomas Waldrom as allegedly more worthy than Shields. And that’s just the Kiwis.

Flutey, Harrison, and Waldrom did have their good moments for England. Van Gisbergen was utterly dire, but his international career lasted 18 minutes, so I'm not sure he really counts.

Puja

Agreed. Flutey was actually pretty good and Harrison’s displays were probably better than what Shields has shown so far!

To be honest, we’re actually really rubbish when it comes to poaching. If we exclude the players who came through our age grade teams (the Vunipolas, Hartley and Tuilagi), our poaches have been pretty poor.

The fact that Brad Barritt is up there with the better ones, tells it’s own story.

[p/d]

I’d take Brad over T’eo and Tuilagi at the moment

[Lizard]

He must also be tempted to get Tuilagi out there to run hard and straight at whatever rookie mid-field combo the roulette ball lands on this time.

Rookie midfield combo? It's 99% likely to be Goodhue at centre with one of Crotty or Williams at second five, and ALB on the bench.

Any combo including Goodhue is, as a combination, rookie. Perhaps not the right word for other combinations but my point is that our mid-field is hardly settled.

Even excluding the B Team v Japan, in 10 tests this year we’ve used 5 different starting combos, and 6 different 12/13/sub combos. Goodhue has started 4 tests, outside 3 different 12s (SBW, Crotty, Laumape x2).

[Digby]

Other players to look away from a suitable standard in the backrow include Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Lawes, Itoje, Shields, Underhill, Hughes and I'm sure I'm missing some other obvious examples. So being good enough isn't much of a factor whereas unlike most of that list Ben comes with a lot of potential

The single most fundamental prerequisite as a test match backrower is physicality on the tackle line and ruck. None of those players you’ve listed lack that. Ben at this stage of his career does(apparently, cos I probably only watch about 5 Sale games a season).

So if some players aren't good enough and aren't going to develop it's still the better decision to pick them and accept we're at best a very limited side to watch?

It's one way to look at sport, albeit for my money overly conservative and even downright joyless

[Scrumhead]

To be honest, I don’t actually think there’s a massive difference between Tom and Ben Curry from a physicality point of view.

Last season (while Tom was injured) Sale primarily played with Ben at 7 alongside Ross at 6 and Strauss at 8. They used him to support the attack and then shared the tight carrying/ruck smashing to Ross and Strauss. I don’t think that was because he wasn’t capable of more physical work, but in the makeup of that particular back row, he was clearly the least suited to it.

This season when both Currys have been available, they’ve tended to mix it up a bit more sometimes with them playing left and right and sometimes an either/or at 7. I can’t say I’ve noticed a massive difference between the two, although Ben tends to be a bit flashier though which Eddie might not like.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah, Ben did do that beautiful chip over the top for a try a while back. That might have been a big black mark against him.

[Digby]

Reports from Sale sound like they're both very physical in training, though young forwards often give it a bit of a Lewis Moody before calming down within 2-3 seasons

[Scrumhead]

Yeah, Ben did do that beautiful chip over the top for a try a while back. That might have been a big black mark against him.

Exactly. I seem to remember a deft little grubber kick as well the following week (around that time anyway).

We want tactically programmed robots not instinctive players.

[Shiny]

Daily Fail are reporting Curry is out for the rest of the Autumn. No news on any other call ups.