Eng vs. Sco - Match thread

[Banquo]

oh.....and the tackling was genuinely rubbish, especially in the outside backs.

I though Tuilagi was terrible in defence.

he wasn't alone; our defence out wide was again lacking, giving easy yards.

[Epaminondas Pules]

One thing that gets me is that nobody factors the mental side of the game that today as a whole brought. To totally ignore the mental aspect of rugby especially in a competition where the importance of a game changes by the minute is very interesting.

We still lost, after having it wrapped up at halftime, again. It’s World Cup year, at home to a depleted Scotland side and we imploded. We’re a team that has struggled to adapt to the ebbs and flows of games for years. We’ve said it repeatedly. It’s been an ongoing issue for years and it hasn’t been remedied.

You miss the point of the mental dynamics of individual games and how they can impact performance.

[Epaminondas Pules]

One thing that gets me is that nobody factors the mental side of the game that today as a whole brought. To totally ignore the mental aspect of rugby especially in a competition where the importance of a game changes by the minute is very interesting.

We still lost, after having it wrapped up at halftime, again. It’s World Cup year, at home to a depleted Scotland side and we imploded. We’re a team that has struggled to adapt to the ebbs and flows of games for years. We’ve said it repeatedly. It’s been an ongoing issue for years and it hasn’t been remedied.

You miss the point of the mental dynamics of individual games and how they can impact performance. I don’t disagree as a generic statement, but each game is not equal.

[Mellsblue]

You are right in saying highlighting individuals is daft- almost every player made critical mistakes, and that's not a great sign imo.

I think they are highlighted because the players keep making them and keep getting picked without question.

You missed my point- highlighting a couple doesn't demonstrate what happened with a lot of players making mistakes as part of an all round melt down. I know that's not giving enough credit to Scotland, but....

You can highlight Faz's garish mistakes, but you could also call out lots of poor tackle attempts, Vunipola's key spill, Genge's wrong options (and any number out wide)..etc etc. The key feature was a collective lack of discipline, focus and intensity- exacerbated by zero leadership.

I don’t think I did. We certainly could list them all but none of us have that much time whilst watching a match. The players that are undroppable despite poor performance are obviously the target of our ire, and rightly so imo.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I think they are highlighted because the players keep making them and keep getting picked without question.

You missed my point- highlighting a couple doesn't demonstrate what happened with a lot of players making mistakes as part of an all round melt down. I know that's not giving enough credit to Scotland, but....

You can highlight Faz's garish mistakes, but you could also call out lots of poor tackle attempts, Vunipola's key spill, Genge's wrong options (and any number out wide)..etc etc. The key feature was a collective lack of discipline, focus and intensity- exacerbated by zero leadership.

I don’t think I did. We certainly could list them all but none of us have that much time whilst watching a match. The players that are undroppable despite poor performance are obviously the target of our ire, and rightly so imo.

So rather than subjectively assess the overal. Root cause, if you will, you’ll target the usual suspects yeah? Because it is easier.

[fivepointer]

All our backs missed tackles. Apart from Ben Youngs. He never made one either.

There is something badly awry in this England side. We have seen serious 2nd half meltdowns in 3 of the 6N games. Tactically we seem to be sorely lacking, sensible onfield leadership and direction are absent, we let momentum stall far too easily and seem impotent in turning things around. There doesnt appear to be any kind of reset mechanism, some reversion to simple plays to steady the ship and try and wrest some control back.
Too many of our players are great when on the front foot and in control, yet go missing when the pressure turns against us.
Its a worrying sign with the WC next on the schedule. Winning tight games, sometimes against the flow, will be a requirement for success. We better start learning to think and adapt a whole lot better then we're currently doing.

[Banquo]

All our backs missed tackles. Apart from Ben Youngs. He never made one either.

There is something badly awry in this England side. We have seen serious 2nd half meltdowns in 3 of the 6N games. Tactically we seem to be sorely lacking, sensible onfield leadership and direction are absent, we let momentum stall far too easily and seem impotent in turning things around. There doesnt appear to be any kind of reset mechanism, some reversion to simple plays to steady the ship and try and wrest some control back.
Too many of our players are great when on the front foot and in control, yet go missing when the pressure turns against us.
Its a worrying sign with the WC next on the schedule. Winning tight games, sometimes against the flow, will be a requirement for success. We better start learning to think and adapt a whole lot better then we're currently doing.

agreed.

[Mellsblue]

One thing that gets me is that nobody factors the mental side of the game that today as a whole brought. To totally ignore the mental aspect of rugby especially in a competition where the importance of a game changes by the minute is very interesting.

We still lost, after having it wrapped up at halftime, again. It’s World Cup year, at home to a depleted Scotland side and we imploded. We’re a team that has struggled to adapt to the ebbs and flows of games for years. We’ve said it repeatedly. It’s been an ongoing issue for years and it hasn’t been remedied.

You miss the point of the mental dynamics of individual games and how they can impact performance.

We still lost our last competitive match prior to a World Cup after being home and hosed at halftime. Similar happened against Wales. Similar, not reacting to what is happening in real time, has happened repeatedly.
It’s a message board. We’re not going to dissect every single minutiae of the match.
I admire your happy, positive outlook on it. I wish I had it, but going round in circles for the past two World Cup cycles has ground me down.
Regardless, of the whys and wherefores, we lost to crunch matches. One of which was at home to a Scotland team who were heavily depleted through injury and have only maganfed to beat Italy this year. If you’re happy with that or happy then fine. If you’re happy to say we’re not taking account of the mental rollercoaster of test rugby then fine. I’m not happy that we lost and I’m happy that I factor in the mental side whilst still being unhappy that we lost.

[Banquo]

I think they are highlighted because the players keep making them and keep getting picked without question.

You missed my point- highlighting a couple doesn't demonstrate what happened with a lot of players making mistakes as part of an all round melt down. I know that's not giving enough credit to Scotland, but....

You can highlight Faz's garish mistakes, but you could also call out lots of poor tackle attempts, Vunipola's key spill, Genge's wrong options (and any number out wide)..etc etc. The key feature was a collective lack of discipline, focus and intensity- exacerbated by zero leadership.

I don’t think I did. We certainly could list them all but none of us have that much time whilst watching a match. The players that are undroppable despite poor performance are obviously the target of our ire, and rightly so imo.

'one' can highlight mistakes then. But missed my overall point, simply confirming (mine too) ones bias, doesn't help explain the very large number of key errors across the team. We lack resilience, and under real pressure are found wanting; EP has something when highlighting the mental side, but its not an excuse in my mind, but a big flaw.

[Mellsblue]

You missed my point- highlighting a couple doesn't demonstrate what happened with a lot of players making mistakes as part of an all round melt down. I know that's not giving enough credit to Scotland, but....

You can highlight Faz's garish mistakes, but you could also call out lots of poor tackle attempts, Vunipola's key spill, Genge's wrong options (and any number out wide)..etc etc. The key feature was a collective lack of discipline, focus and intensity- exacerbated by zero leadership.

I don’t think I did. We certainly could list them all but none of us have that much time whilst watching a match. The players that are undroppable despite poor performance are obviously the target of our ire, and rightly so imo.

So rather than subjectively assess the overal. Root cause, if you will, you’ll target the usual suspects yeah? Because it is easier.

No. Il pick up the mistakes of the untouchables, one of which is captain and perennially shortlisted for world player of the year, because I’m watching the match whilst trying to type on my phone. If you want a thousand word dissection of the game then a match thread on an internet message board is the wrong place to look.

[Banquo]

One thing that gets me is that nobody factors the mental side of the game that today as a whole brought. To totally ignore the mental aspect of rugby especially in a competition where the importance of a game changes by the minute is very interesting.

Indeed, and we failed at it. Its not an excuse however. And what's the evidence that no-one is factoring it in- it plays into errors, it plays into shyte decision making, it plays into intensity drop off. What point are you making? If you are saying we lost it mentally, I don't think anyone would disagree.

The point I’m making is the armchair punditry on here makes no mention of it. Does not factor it at all, as if international rugby was a simple thing.

We won!! World Cup contenders!
We lost! End of the world!
Same with individual players.

So you are complaining about the posters, not making excuses for the team?

[Mellsblue]

You missed my point- highlighting a couple doesn't demonstrate what happened with a lot of players making mistakes as part of an all round melt down. I know that's not giving enough credit to Scotland, but....

You can highlight Faz's garish mistakes, but you could also call out lots of poor tackle attempts, Vunipola's key spill, Genge's wrong options (and any number out wide)..etc etc. The key feature was a collective lack of discipline, focus and intensity- exacerbated by zero leadership.

I don’t think I did. We certainly could list them all but none of us have that much time whilst watching a match. The players that are undroppable despite poor performance are obviously the target of our ire, and rightly so imo.

'one' can highlight mistakes then. But missed my overall point, simply confirming (mine too) ones bias, doesn't help explain the very large number of key errors across the team. We lack resilience, and under real pressure are found wanting; EP has something when highlighting the mental side, but its not an excuse in my mind, but a big flaw.

I note them because I’m sick of them being picked despite poor performance. That doesn’t mean i absolve all the others or don’t notice their mistakes.
As I say above, it’s a match thread on a message board. We aren’t going to cover every single action.

[Oakboy]

One thing that gets me is that nobody factors the mental side of the game that today as a whole brought. To totally ignore the mental aspect of rugby especially in a competition where the importance of a game changes by the minute is very interesting.

Indeed, and we failed at it. Its not an excuse however. And what's the evidence that no-one is factoring it in- it plays into errors, it plays into shyte decision making, it plays into intensity drop off. What point are you making? If you are saying we lost it mentally, I don't think anyone would disagree.

The point I’m making is the armchair punditry on here makes no mention of it. Does not factor it at all, as if international rugby was a simple thing.

We won!! World Cup contenders!
We lost! End of the world!
Same with individual players.

That is just bollix. We cannot be any good if we throw away that HT lead no matter how you might wish to factor in issues that YOU wish to highlight. We/you can argue about multiple factors, mental or physical, but the scoreboard does not lie.

Any side with serious RWC pretensions should have won the 2nd half as well as the 1st. Emotion does enter into it. Exaggeration breeds from disappointment but, no matter how you wrap it up, there are no excuses for that sort of failure. Drawing with that Scottish team at home most definitely IS failure.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I don’t think I did. We certainly could list them all but none of us have that much time whilst watching a match. The players that are undroppable despite poor performance are obviously the target of our ire, and rightly so imo.

So rather than subjectively assess the overal. Root cause, if you will, you’ll target the usual suspects yeah? Because it is easier.

No. Il pick up the mistakes of the untouchables, one of which is captain and perennially shortlisted for world player of the year, because I’m watching the match whilst trying to type on my phone. If you want a thousand word dissection of the game then a match thread on an internet message board is the wrong place to look.

Word count doesn’t matter. But focusing on obvious easy targets and negating other issues shows a lack of awareness. Farrell, Youngs and any other usual suspect alone did not create that result in isolation. The issue was far wider. You’ve chosen the lazy path. So be it.

[Banquo]

I don’t think I did. We certainly could list them all but none of us have that much time whilst watching a match. The players that are undroppable despite poor performance are obviously the target of our ire, and rightly so imo.

'one' can highlight mistakes then. But missed my overall point, simply confirming (mine too) ones bias, doesn't help explain the very large number of key errors across the team. We lack resilience, and under real pressure are found wanting; EP has something when highlighting the mental side, but its not an excuse in my mind, but a big flaw.

I note them because I’m sick of them being picked despite poor performance. That doesn’t mean i absolve all the others or don’t notice their mistakes.
As I say above, it’s a match thread on a message board. We aren’t going to cover every single action.

Jeez calm down; I'm not even saying you are, I'm adding there is more to look at than the usual suspects.

[Stom]

You are right in saying highlighting individuals is daft- almost every player made critical mistakes, and that's not a great sign imo.

I think they are highlighted because the players keep making them and keep getting picked without question.

You missed my point- highlighting a couple doesn't demonstrate what happened with a lot of players making mistakes as part of an all round melt down. I know that's not giving enough credit to Scotland, but....

You can highlight Faz's garish mistakes, but you could also call out lots of poor tackle attempts, Vunipola's key spill, Genge's wrong options (and any number out wide)..etc etc. The key feature was a collective lack of discipline, focus and intensity- exacerbated by zero leadership.

But that's kind of the point...

This is a team Jones has made in Farrell's image. He is the captain, he sets the tone, and he is possibly the least "iceman" player available, and that includes Sinckler and Genge!

If a team loses intensity, it is the captain's responsibility to arrest that. Can I ask how many meltdowns you remember from Eddie's reign with Hartley as captain? I don't remember many but we've had 4 with Farrell as captain. And he's been captain for around 7 (8?) games...

He is also our 10, the fulcrum of our team.

And, yes, the final buck stops 100% with Eddie. Which is why I think we need to sack him tomorrow if we want to win the WC. Plain and simple. Apart from his "beasting" blip, the team under him has just got worse and worse. He had 1 actually good series plus 1 decent 6N blighted by one terrible match.

We cannot comment throughout the game on the fact that we're wilting under pressure. Because, well, you don't see the wilting under pressure, that's something you understand from watching the game. But you can see the captain making mistake after mistake after mistake when he's meant to be leading the team out of a mess. So that is what you comment on.

EP, you have consistently put yourself on a pedestal above the rest of us and you wonder why we think you're an arse. Just because you watch more rugby doesn't give you a better understanding. Most of us are not international only fans. I don't watch as much rugby as when I had no family and lived 5 minutes from the Stoop. Whoopdeedo. But I do watch every match I can get my hands on, even that godawful Sale vs Leicester match last week.

[Banquo]

I think they are highlighted because the players keep making them and keep getting picked without question.

You missed my point- highlighting a couple doesn't demonstrate what happened with a lot of players making mistakes as part of an all round melt down. I know that's not giving enough credit to Scotland, but....

You can highlight Faz's garish mistakes, but you could also call out lots of poor tackle attempts, Vunipola's key spill, Genge's wrong options (and any number out wide)..etc etc. The key feature was a collective lack of discipline, focus and intensity- exacerbated by zero leadership.

But that's kind of the point...

This is a team Jones has made in Farrell's image. He is the captain, he sets the tone, and he is possibly the least "iceman" player available, and that includes Sinckler and Genge!

.

I made the same point elsewhere- there is a chicken and egg element to this ('exacerbated by zero leadership'). The only point I'm making is the same as yours, we had a collective meltdown. I'm not criticising your individual comments, mostly as I haven't read them- not sure why you and Mells are so touchy tbh.

[Stom]

You missed my point- highlighting a couple doesn't demonstrate what happened with a lot of players making mistakes as part of an all round melt down. I know that's not giving enough credit to Scotland, but....

You can highlight Faz's garish mistakes, but you could also call out lots of poor tackle attempts, Vunipola's key spill, Genge's wrong options (and any number out wide)..etc etc. The key feature was a collective lack of discipline, focus and intensity- exacerbated by zero leadership.

But that's kind of the point...

This is a team Jones has made in Farrell's image. He is the captain, he sets the tone, and he is possibly the least "iceman" player available, and that includes Sinckler and Genge!

.

I made the same point elsewhere- there is a chicken and egg element to this. The only point I'm making is the same as yours, we had a collective meltdown. I'm not criticising your individual comments, mostly as I haven't read them- not sure why you and Mells are so touchy tbh.

Because of the holier than thou attitude. And it's not you. You're full of good points (most of the time ) and talk to others with respect.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Indeed, and we failed at it. Its not an excuse however. And what's the evidence that no-one is factoring it in- it plays into errors, it plays into shyte decision making, it plays into intensity drop off. What point are you making? If you are saying we lost it mentally, I don't think anyone would disagree.

The point I’m making is the armchair punditry on here makes no mention of it. Does not factor it at all, as if international rugby was a simple thing.

We won!! World Cup contenders!
We lost! End of the world!
Same with individual players.

So you are complaining about the posters, not making excuses for the team?

Yes people taking easy outs and easy targets rather than getting into the root cause.

[Banquo]

The point I’m making is the armchair punditry on here makes no mention of it. Does not factor it at all, as if international rugby was a simple thing.

We won!! World Cup contenders!
We lost! End of the world!
Same with individual players.

So you are complaining about the posters, not making excuses for the team?

No people taking easy outs and easy targets rather than getting into the root cause

I don't think they are- they are just making 'transactional comments' about what they see in the moment. Much like almost any fan you sit next to at a match, or even a player standing next to you when the 10 gets charged down - you can only really do an analysis at a break or after the game. There undoubtedly are a set of mental and technical and tactical things that need addressing, and I and others have a go at these after (and before). But if you don't want or like a running commentary, the choice is there. We all react in differing ways as spectators.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Agreed, but if commentary is stated with certainty then expect to be rebuffed when such commentary is myopic, or lacks empathy.

For example there is more to a breakdown than a scrum half just passing the ball out. There are many factors which make that viable or not even before said SH actually have to enact such.

I’m kind of tired of lazy posting. Especially where such posting is so absolute rather than being speculative.

[Mellsblue]

So rather than subjectively assess the overal. Root cause, if you will, you’ll target the usual suspects yeah? Because it is easier.

No. Il pick up the mistakes of the untouchables, one of which is captain and perennially shortlisted for world player of the year, because I’m watching the match whilst trying to type on my phone. If you want a thousand word dissection of the game then a match thread on an internet message board is the wrong place to look.

Word count doesn’t matter. But focusing on obvious easy targets and negating other issues shows a lack of awareness. Farrell, Youngs and any other usual suspect alone did not create that result in isolation. The issue was far wider. You’ve chosen the lazy path. So be it.

I have chosen the lazy path. I’m sat in an armchair watching the match on a tv. Typing out little snippets with my hand resting on the arm of said chair. I couldn’t be any lazier. No lazier than your assumption that we don’t enough rugby or play rugby.
Funnily, JW and Geech seemed to focus on the same issue most of us covered on here. Poor decision making from the halfbacks and senior players and an unacceptable second half performance which, taken along with the Wales match, is pretty troubling. Still, they probably don’t watch enough rugby.
I’ll say again. I’m on an internet message board typing on my phone, I’m not going to cover all aspects of the performance. I’m fully aware of all aspects of the game.
By your reaction to our throw away comments on here, I suspect you’re actually angrier about that performance than I am.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Indeed, and we failed at it. Its not an excuse however. And what's the evidence that no-one is factoring it in- it plays into errors, it plays into shyte decision making, it plays into intensity drop off. What point are you making? If you are saying we lost it mentally, I don't think anyone would disagree.

The point I’m making is the armchair punditry on here makes no mention of it. Does not factor it at all, as if international rugby was a simple thing.

We won!! World Cup contenders!
We lost! End of the world!
Same with individual players.

That is just bollix. We cannot be any good if we throw away that HT lead no matter how you might wish to factor in issues that YOU wish to highlight. We/you can argue about multiple factors, mental or physical, but the scoreboard does not lie.

Any side with serious RWC pretensions should have won the 2nd half as well as the 1st. Emotion does enter into it. Exaggeration breeds from disappointment but, no matter how you wrap it up, there are no excuses for that sort of failure. Drawing with that Scottish team at home most definitely IS failure.

It really isn't. If you can't think about momentum shifts in sport and what happens mentally and collectively when that happens then you're a long way off point. Equally, not factoring how much the importance of todays game shifted during the day and how that affects players mentally shows a lack of empathy and understanding. It is not in itself an excuse, but something that should be factored in.

if you negate the mental aspects of sport then you negate a massive part of what differentiates between winning and losing.

[Banquo]

Agreed, but if commentary is stated with certainty then expect to be rebuffed when such commentary is myopic, or lacks empathy.

For example there is more to a breakdown than a scrum half just passing the ball out. There are many factors which make that viable or not even before said SH actually have to enact such.

I’m kind of tired of lazy posting. Especially where such posting is so absolute rather than being speculative.

Isn't subjectivity the life blood of this kind of debate? I think taking opinion as fact is a frustrating route.

[Mellsblue]

'one' can highlight mistakes then. But missed my overall point, simply confirming (mine too) ones bias, doesn't help explain the very large number of key errors across the team. We lack resilience, and under real pressure are found wanting; EP has something when highlighting the mental side, but its not an excuse in my mind, but a big flaw.

I note them because I’m sick of them being picked despite poor performance. That doesn’t mean i absolve all the others or don’t notice their mistakes.
As I say above, it’s a match thread on a message board. We aren’t going to cover every single action.

Jeez calm down; I'm not even saying you are, I'm adding there is more to look at than the usual suspects.

Sorry if I’m coming across as pissed of with you. I’m not. It’s just this idea that because you haven’t mentioned something on a match thread you’ve missed it or not taken it into account. Let’s face facts, nobody wants to end up like Digby and chronicle every second of the game. Especially when said Hans is going on at the time.
Getting back on point, yes there are more issues than just the usual suspects. Billy isn’t carrying as well as pre-injury, Launch looks heavy legged, too many easy yards out wide, Slade, though very good today, needs acres of space to be effective, Tuilagi is less effective in the confines of IC etc etc