Post RWC

[MrK]

Id like to see

A powerful scrum - like we used to have with GJ,MR,AJ - we have players potential Carre, Lewis, Brown, WillGriff etc but we need them to become masters at the set piece - their carrying is good
A consistent lineout - we have Beard, Hill, Ball, maybe some others to come through but we need to be more accurate and more positive here.
A back row that can make headway - We're no going to have a huge back row, Faletau was never huge, he used footwork - I want to see Jenkins, Griffiths, Basham, Wainright etc developing the ability to get over the gain line, Navidi to continue what hes doing, and Moriaty to step up and fulfil his potential.

Scrum 1/2s - Tomos and G Davies will stil be involved, I really like the look of Hardy.
10s - we need to go back to Anscombe, but develop Patchell and Jarrod also, I love biggar, but Id move on
Centres - Struggling here, what have we got coming through? Do we use Halahola?
Back 3 - Adams, Lane, Amos should be the players we look to develop, Williams will be a mainstay for a while, North he has all the attributes, but rarely looks to use them, hes disappointed ...again.

I want to see a team and a game plan that provides quick ball, no one out carriers, and threat all across the park.
The defence hs been excellent, we can win 6N based on that, but we need a little more to get to that next stage.
Constant success against the SH sides, and then a WC FInal in 4 years time

[Sandydragon]

Assuming fitness etc and only the oldest players hanging up their boots immediately:

1. Wyn Jones
2. Dee
3. Francis
4. Beard
5. Hill (C)
6. Navidi
7. Tipuric (assuming Ellis Jenkins or Griffiths don’t oust him)
8. Faletau
9. T Williams
10. Patchell
11. North/ Lane
12. Watkin
13. JD2
14. Adams
15. Williams

Over the next two years we will need to find viable replacements at open side (not too concerned as we have some good options there), number 8 (beyond Moriarty), outside centre (and a good IC if one comes through), and full back.

[Sandydragon]

I’ve also overlooked Rob Evans and Samson Lee, both of whom are probably young enough for the next RWC.

[Sourdust]

Centre is a huge concern.

Foxy, Parkes and (probably) Williams will be gone within at most a couple of years. Watkin is worth persevering with, but who else? Tyler Morgan must be running out of chances. Keiran Williams doesn't seem to be kicking on. Otherwise, who is even playing in the centre who's Welsh? Owen Williams? Tian Thomas-Wheeler? Steff Hughes? I'm not seeing a chosen one in there.

[Sourdust]

Addendum to the above: I've just looked at the Dragons' website. They list seven centres in their squad. Tyler Morgan, Adam Warren (I didn't know he was a centre) and five names that I promise I'm not exagerrating to say I've never heard of before. :-/

[Sandydragon]

Agreed. Massive problem but I don’t see Halohala as an answer. He isn’t that much younger.

Watkin is better at IC and deserves a chance to start there. Otherwise do we look to convert Lane?

Do we try out Owen Williams again who to be fair was alright at IC in the 2 chances he got.

I’m struggling as well for a viable fullback.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I think Amos is the long-term full back option.

Yeah, I know he had a bad game the other day, but he's still a quality player.

[Sandydragon]

I think Amos is the long-term full back option.

Yeah, I know he had a bad game the other day, but he's still a quality player.

He a very good player despite a one off poor performance. Full back maybe although I’d like to see him try outside centre at some point.

[Numbers]

We have had a generation of very good players, we don't seem to be producing quite the same level of player over recent seasons, we have quality backrow players coming through but not enough props or second rows, we are ok for 9s but the centres are quite bear, we have a few good wing options and not many at fullback. We'll need to stick with what we have for as long as possible and try and to players of promise integrated into the side and up to standard imo.

[Sandydragon]

Let’s hope the transition is a process rather than an event. We might lose a couple of players pretty soon but many still have a couple of seasons left in them and hopefully they can help bring through younger players. Watkin will get better with regular games alongside JD2.

I’m really keen to see Patchell move into the starting fly half shirt. I’m hoping our attack will become more fluid in the new regime and Patchell looks to be the obvious choice going forward.

[Numbers]

Let’s hope the transition is a process rather than an event. We might lose a couple of players pretty soon but many still have a couple of seasons left in them and hopefully they can help bring through younger players. Watkin will get better with regular games alongside JD2.

I’m really keen to see Patchell move into the starting fly half shirt. I’m hoping our attack will become more fluid in the new regime and Patchell looks to be the obvious choice going forward.

Here's the current squad with the ages:


Player Date of birth (age)
Elliot Dee (aged 25)
Ryan Elias (aged 24)
Ken Owens (aged 32)
Rhys Carré (aged 21)
Tomas Francis (aged 27)
Wyn Jones (aged 27)
Dillon Lewis (aged 23)
Nicky Smith (aged 25)
Jake Ball (aged 28)
Adam Beard (aged 23)
Bradley Davies (age 32)
Cory Hill (aged 27)
Alun Wyn Jones (c) (aged 34)
James Davies (aged 28)
Ross Moriarty (aged 25)
Josh Navidi (aged 28)
Aaron Shingler (aged 32)
Justin Tipuric (aged 30)
Aaron Wainwright (aged 21)
Aled Davies (aged 27)
Gareth Davies (aged 29)
Tomos Williams (aged 24)
Dan Biggar (aged 29)
Rhys Patchell (aged 26)
Jonathan Davies (aged 31)
Hadleigh Parkes (aged 31)
Owen Watkin (aged 22)
Josh Adams (aged 24)
Hallam Amos (aged 24)
Owen Lane (aged 21)
George North (aged 27)
Leigh Halfpenny (aged 30)
Liam Williams (aged 28)


I've highlighted the players who are pretty much guaranteed not to make another WC cycle.

[Sandydragon]

I though Parkes was slightly older. Still, if JD2 can go for another season then it helps bring Watkins then all good. Otherwise we are probably looking at a stop gap player like Halohala, which feels a bit of a pointless exercise unless we are desperate.

[MrK]

Who Id replace these with

Here's the current squad with the ages:


Player Date of birth (age)
Elliot Dee (aged 25)
Ryan Elias (aged 24)
Ken Owens (aged 32) Lake - for long term
Rhys Carré (aged 21)
Tomas Francis (aged 27)
Wyn Jones (aged 27)
Dillon Lewis (aged 23)
Nicky Smith (aged 25)
Jake Ball (aged 28)
Adam Beard (aged 23)
Bradley Davies (age 32) Seb Davies
Cory Hill (aged 27)
Alun Wyn Jones (c) (aged 34) Cory Hill
James Davies (aged 28)
Ross Moriarty (aged 25)
Josh Navidi (aged 28)
Aaron Shingler (aged 32) Ellis Jenkins
Justin Tipuric (aged 30) Ollie Griffiths probably
Aaron Wainwright (aged 21)
Aled Davies (aged 27)
Gareth Davies (aged 29) Kieron Hardy
Tomos Williams (aged 24)
Dan Biggar (aged 29) Anscomber / J Evans
Rhys Patchell (aged 26)
Jonathan Davies (aged 31) Struggling
Hadleigh Parkes (aged 31) Struggling
Owen Watkin (aged 22)
Josh Adams (aged 24)
Hallam Amos (aged 24)
Owen Lane (aged 21)
George North (aged 27)
Leigh Halfpenny (aged 30) Rhun Williams maybe?
Liam Williams (aged 28)


I've highlighted the players who are pretty much guaranteed not to make another WC cycle.[/quote]

[Scrumhead]

I think it’ll have to be evolution rather than revolution TBH. The 2020 6 Nations is going to be an odd one with lots of turnover in the coaching set-up and players for a lot of countries, so you may as well keep some continuity where you can. As always, the key will be getting the handover right from the older generation to their successors.

Most positions have decent depth IMO. The main issues are that Locks and centres look really under-resourced though.

A few observations from afar ...

Rob Evans has barely had a mention but is only 27 so should comfortably be around for the next RWC. I understand why he wasn’t picked this time round, but I still think he’s Wales’ best prop.

Rhys Carré and Sam Wainwright will benefit from being in a good group of props at Saracens.

Kieron Assiratti should be given more game time. He looked like a real handful at U20 but has been slow to break in to the Blues team.

Dewi Lake should be fast-tracked. He looks like he has the potential to be very good.

Could a move to the regions see Owen Williams make a comeback as an option at 12? At 27 he’s not really a ‘young’ player anymore, but he looked comfortable at test level pre-injury.

Worth keeping an eye of Ioan Lloyd, Tommy Reffell and Louis Rees-Zammit in the Premiership.

[Sandydragon]

Centre is a real problem for us and Owen Williams did good against the All Blacks and Australia. Parkes was obviously favoured by Gatland but if Privac wants a wider game then Owen Williams could offer a solution alongside a more traditional centre like Watkin.

ThenFail was speculating on the squad for the next RWC. It’s basically the same as this one, with Lake as a bolter.

The Fail could save themselves some money in rugby writers and just subscribe here.

[Buggaluggs]

Centre is a real problem for us and Owen Williams did good against the All Blacks and Australia. Parkes was obviously favoured by Gatland but if Privac wants a wider game then Owen Williams could offer a solution alongside a more traditional centre like Watkin.

ThenFail was speculating on the squad for the next RWC. It’s basically the same as this one, with Lake as a bolter.

The Fail could save themselves some money in rugby writers and just subscribe here.

They pay for them?

[Sandydragon]

If today is anything to go by:

Amos can do a job at Full Back. Some iffy kicks but joins the line well and defended well enough, except when others made mistakes.

Tomos Williams needs to start at scrum half. More pace on the pass and still has the odd sniping run.

Patchell should be flynhalf and given time to settle in.

Carre adds a lot of value.

Watkin should be our IC.

We need to work on ball skills. We don’t have the size to smash through so we need more subtlety.

Elliot Dee is a good hooker now and will only get better.

[MrK]

Watkin was much better as IC, agreed.

I was an advocate of Lane starting, in hindsight, he joined to late, you cant blame him for todays performance.

Carre , Dee and Lewis both put in good shifts.

We really need a ball carrying lock in the Retalick/Whitelock style - we have to develop Seb Davies

Back row was Ok, but Moriaty has regressed from when he first burst on the scene.

[Sandydragon]

Lane had a poor game but how much time has he really had with the squad. There will be other days for him.

I agree about Moriarty. Sometimes he can be great but too often his carries aren’t effective. Tipuric is still class but he is trying to do too much you feel and it’s reducing his X factor.

Wainwright is a future contender and he has done well this RWC. Faletau will surely return and with Navidi plus Jenkins and Griffiths in the mix going forward, we have a number of options for the short term and the nextbRWC.

[Buggaluggs]

If today is anything to go by:

Amos can do a job at Full Back. Some iffy kicks but joins the line well and defended well enough, except when others made mistakes.

Tomos Williams needs to start at scrum half. More pace on the pass and still has the odd sniping run.

Patchell should be flynhalf and given time to settle in.

Carre adds a lot of value.

Watkin should be our IC.

We need to work on ball skills. We don’t have the size to smash through so we need more subtlety.

Elliot Dee is a good hooker now and will only get better.

This. This should be consistently coached from schools age through the regions. How to exploit a 3 on 2. How to spot a 3 on 2 is even there. How to pass so that the receiver gets the ball at pace without breaking stride or slowing down.

[MrK]

Agreed

Players Id like to see a slow introduction of players rather than a complete changing, but I would phase out Owens, AWJ, and maybe a few others sooner rather than later. Some because we have players that could step in, and others because if we dont start exposing some of them now, they are never going to be ready.

[Numbers]

Agreed

Players Id like to see a slow introduction of players rather than a complete changing, but I would phase out Owens, AWJ, and maybe a few others sooner rather than later. Some because we have players that could step in, and others because if we dont start exposing some of them now, they are never going to be ready.

I think Dee was excellent off the bench today, we have some good young hookers most of whom have been exposed to the International setup, I don't think Pivac will make that many changes and I don't think AWJ will be hanging up his International shirt for another couple of years yet. As mentioned we aren't exactly flush with second rows at the moment, we have Beard, Ball, Hill and Seb Davies which is not enough by any means, Max Williams has shown promise at U20s level and Christ Tshiunza to come through but both are raw at the moment, hopefully they'll be introduced to the National setup to learn a few things from AWJ before he eventually retires. We should be able to get them up to a decent standard in 4 years hopefully.

[Sandydragon]

I’d definitely want to see Dee and Watkin moving into the starting squad, even if the players they replace are on the bench for the time being.

Ditto Patchell a d Tomos Williams.

I’m thinking that for the first six nations game, we might look a bit like this (injuries notwithstanding)

Wyn Jones
Dee
Francis
Beard
AWJ
Navidi
Tipuric
Faletau
T Williams
Patchell
Adams
Watkin
JD2
North
Amos

Bench
R Evans
Elias
Lewis
Ball
Wainwright
G Davies
Anscombe/Biggar
Parkes

The new team doesnt have a lot of time before the six nations kicks off, so I’m thinking fairly minimal changes at first with more players coming through for the summer tour.

[Numbers]

I think Jarrod Evans is the future for us at 10, Patchell is more attacking than Biggar but he doesn't threaten the gainline like Evans does, we could have Patchell at 12 perhaps as a 2nd 5/8 which would play into a more expansive style.

[MrK]

Agreed

Players Id like to see a slow introduction of players rather than a complete changing, but I would phase out Owens, AWJ, and maybe a few others sooner rather than later. Some because we have players that could step in, and others because if we dont start exposing some of them now, they are never going to be ready.

I think Dee was excellent off the bench today, we have some good young hookers most of whom have been exposed to the International setup, I don't think Pivac will make that many changes and I don't think AWJ will be hanging up his International shirt for another couple of years yet. As mentioned we aren't exactly flush with second rows at the moment, we have Beard, Ball, Hill and Seb Davies which is not enough by any means, Max Williams has shown promise at U20s level and Christ Tshiunza to come through but both are raw at the moment, hopefully they'll be introduced to the National setup to learn a few things from AWJ before he eventually retires. We should be able to get them up to a decent standard in 4 years hopefully.

I Know this is heresy, but I dont think AWJ has offered much more than leadership for a couple of seasons, Im not belittling that, but a modern day second row needs to offer more than he does. Just my opinion.